Need seasoned opinions on sim
07-19-2008, 07:17 PM
#21
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 5
My .02$ worth
Once I passed my initial, my check airman said to read a chapter of the AOM or Ops manual every week for the next year. Once I was done with re-reading both manuals, start all over again. Sounds like a pain, but there are lots of things that make sense AFTER you have flown the line for awhile.
My ex hated the month in front of my PC, hours on hours of limits and procedures. You are right, you have not seen a V1 cut in a year, but you better be able to do one correctly without the sim warm up. After all, I have as yet to see an aircraft with either a crash reset or flight freeze button installed
My ex hated the month in front of my PC, hours on hours of limits and procedures. You are right, you have not seen a V1 cut in a year, but you better be able to do one correctly without the sim warm up. After all, I have as yet to see an aircraft with either a crash reset or flight freeze button installed
07-19-2008, 07:33 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by bryris
... Does it get easier the more sim flying you do?
The best way to learn is by observing others – also it’ll alleviate some of your anxieties about the sim – nothing builds a pilot’s self esteem like seeing other pilots screw up in the sim…
Good luck to you.
07-20-2008, 06:34 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Corporate
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by bryris
I am with a regional and just went through my first FO recurrent. I flew through the oral, but struggled with the sim. In the end, I did pass, so I must have done something right.
However, the check airman ripped me up pretty good and in so many words told me that I should relish every paycheck the company gives me because my flying skills aren't worth crap. He didn't say it would always be that way and sort of attributed it to being new still.
First off, its different when you fly the sim everyday like these guys do. The sim doesn't fly like the airplane, it doesn't even feel like the airplane. Its also 5 times as sensitive. So, that is the first problem after 800 hours of flying a 50,000lb actual airplane, vs. a computer program.
Secondly, I haven't done 90% of what we did in the sim since I was last in the sim a year ago. How do you practice V1 cuts on the line? How about single engine approaches? I haven't even done a go around for real on the line yet. Stalls, steep turns? How am I supposed to practice this stuff out there?
I do my job and I feel I do it well, commensurate with the experience that I have (1,500 hours or so). Every captain I fly with tells me that I do a good job, etc.
Yet, in the sim, I walk out feeling like I should just hang up my hat and toss my licenses in the trash.
Does it get easier the more sim flying you do? How do you prep for these sim profiles that you NEVER do online? I can "armchair" fly all day, but it doesn't really help in the actual sim.
However, the check airman ripped me up pretty good and in so many words told me that I should relish every paycheck the company gives me because my flying skills aren't worth crap. He didn't say it would always be that way and sort of attributed it to being new still.
First off, its different when you fly the sim everyday like these guys do. The sim doesn't fly like the airplane, it doesn't even feel like the airplane. Its also 5 times as sensitive. So, that is the first problem after 800 hours of flying a 50,000lb actual airplane, vs. a computer program.
Secondly, I haven't done 90% of what we did in the sim since I was last in the sim a year ago. How do you practice V1 cuts on the line? How about single engine approaches? I haven't even done a go around for real on the line yet. Stalls, steep turns? How am I supposed to practice this stuff out there?
I do my job and I feel I do it well, commensurate with the experience that I have (1,500 hours or so). Every captain I fly with tells me that I do a good job, etc.
Yet, in the sim, I walk out feeling like I should just hang up my hat and toss my licenses in the trash.
Does it get easier the more sim flying you do? How do you prep for these sim profiles that you NEVER do online? I can "armchair" fly all day, but it doesn't really help in the actual sim.
07-20-2008, 07:11 AM
#24
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,505
I come from a slightly different perspective...my background includes over 600 hours of flying Level C/D simulators prior to my first "real" flying job thanks to the best aviation internship (co-op) that exists.
As others have said, definitely chair-fly and know your profiles COLD.
For V1 cuts, don't rush. Take your time. When you see and feel the airplane start to yaw, smoothly apply rudder to keep the nose tracking straight and don't rotate until the nose is pointing down the runway. It happens very fast, but just mashing on the rudder and/or jerking the nose up is the path to an UNSAT every time.
For OEI operations, same thing - TAKE YOUR TIME. Nothing in the sim happens that requires you to rush. V1 cut with a fire warning? Don't touch anything (maybe have the PNF cancel the fire bell) and keep flying the damn airplane until you hit your altitude to clean up and run the memory items/checklist, that engine might be burning but its still producing thrust and everything is better to do at 1000' vs. 400' or lower.
As the Pilot Flying, use CRM and tell your PNF what you want them to do in terms of memory items and/or QRH. Use the autopilot as much as humanly possible. When handflying, trim those forces out as much as you can stand; I normally like to keep a little rudder input in during approach so that when I wiped the power on a OEI landing I didn't get a low-altitude yaw.
Stalls & steep turns? You can't really practice those, although steep turns are pretty easy in the CRJ if you have maintained your scan and you bump power up about 2% after entering the turn. Best advice I can offer you with stalls is know the briefing, setup and profile COLD.
Most important thing...RELAX. Its a box with a cockpit in it, and almost everybody gets nervous when faced with a checking event. You'll fly smoother if you use lighter forces on the control, take deep breaths, and refuse to allow ANYBODY to rush you. I love AQP and loathe standard 121 proficiency checks because you are checked on items that you rarely receive any TRAINING on beyond initial lessons.
Good advice here, and you passed the most important checkride - the probie check. There are always a few people in training departments that have to show everybody how much more they know or how much better pilots they are. Don't worry about those folks, just go out and do your job the best you can, and prepare even better for next year's event. Good luck!
As others have said, definitely chair-fly and know your profiles COLD.
For V1 cuts, don't rush. Take your time. When you see and feel the airplane start to yaw, smoothly apply rudder to keep the nose tracking straight and don't rotate until the nose is pointing down the runway. It happens very fast, but just mashing on the rudder and/or jerking the nose up is the path to an UNSAT every time.
For OEI operations, same thing - TAKE YOUR TIME. Nothing in the sim happens that requires you to rush. V1 cut with a fire warning? Don't touch anything (maybe have the PNF cancel the fire bell) and keep flying the damn airplane until you hit your altitude to clean up and run the memory items/checklist, that engine might be burning but its still producing thrust and everything is better to do at 1000' vs. 400' or lower.
As the Pilot Flying, use CRM and tell your PNF what you want them to do in terms of memory items and/or QRH. Use the autopilot as much as humanly possible. When handflying, trim those forces out as much as you can stand; I normally like to keep a little rudder input in during approach so that when I wiped the power on a OEI landing I didn't get a low-altitude yaw.
Stalls & steep turns? You can't really practice those, although steep turns are pretty easy in the CRJ if you have maintained your scan and you bump power up about 2% after entering the turn. Best advice I can offer you with stalls is know the briefing, setup and profile COLD.
Most important thing...RELAX. Its a box with a cockpit in it, and almost everybody gets nervous when faced with a checking event. You'll fly smoother if you use lighter forces on the control, take deep breaths, and refuse to allow ANYBODY to rush you. I love AQP and loathe standard 121 proficiency checks because you are checked on items that you rarely receive any TRAINING on beyond initial lessons.
Good advice here, and you passed the most important checkride - the probie check. There are always a few people in training departments that have to show everybody how much more they know or how much better pilots they are. Don't worry about those folks, just go out and do your job the best you can, and prepare even better for next year's event. Good luck!
07-20-2008, 07:42 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Consider himself lucky to have been hired into a jet with less than 1,000 hours when he started. Not alot of experience, which makes going to a recurrent that much harder, since he has little experience to help correlate to the sim. We should be hearing more stories like this as the latest batch of wet behind the ears folks get closer to their first year probbie rides.
Other than that, I think most people's advice is spot on. Study your profiles, review, and practice... just like you did in long term. It worked then, it will work now.
And relax, if you "really" were as bad as he was saying, he would not have passed you. Sounds like either he was having a bad day, doesn't know how to teach/evaluate properly, or perhaps you were having an off day. Any number of factors would throw things off... relax, you passed.
Other than that, I think most people's advice is spot on. Study your profiles, review, and practice... just like you did in long term. It worked then, it will work now.
And relax, if you "really" were as bad as he was saying, he would not have passed you. Sounds like either he was having a bad day, doesn't know how to teach/evaluate properly, or perhaps you were having an off day. Any number of factors would throw things off... relax, you passed.
07-20-2008, 10:26 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
IMHO, boxes get easier with repetition. They still suck, mind you, but they don't suck as much...
Best advice I have is go at YOUR pace. Of COURSE the sim instructor gets bored watching you do stalls or steep turns...he's seen them 100 times the last three months...you haven't done them in 6 months or a year... Screw him. He or she is proably a good instructor and a good person, but they sometimes lose the fact that you dont' do this EVERY week. So go at your pace... You heard about configuing early, not rushing, etc....its all good advice. "Snapshotting" around can really diminish your SA too. If your instructor is constantly freezing and reseting you during the sim, make sure you are 100% ready to go before you call ready. The extra 30-60 seconds to have navaids set, trim set, approach plates ready, etc can help prevent a rushed or frustrating approach down the road.
No excuses, however, for showing up not knowing procedures, callouts, and ops limits cold. Control the variables YOU can control. A good oral is usually followed by a solid sim. Rarely is a marginal oral followed with a great sim. Preparation across the board helps. You WILL get better at preparing now that you've done this a few times...you sort of know what you need to study and where to focus. That is one of the factors that makes future sims easier.
Also--ask if you can sandbag a sim training period. I know at some operations that isn't an option, but in our last contract we are allowed to request an extra sim with certain restrictions. Doing a couple dozen V1 cuts the month prior to your checkride cannot hurt.
Another option--pay for some outside sim time prior to your ride. We used to routinely provide some sim training to a few DC-10 captains who wanted some extra work before their PCs. I don't know if it was pride, concern about job security, or just a desire to be prepared...but I had a lot of respect for the guys who would do this. They knew they had areas for improvement so they sought out the help they needed.
So--in my opinion--don't quit. I don't like the rubber glove treatment at my physicals....but I'm grateful for good health. Some dark and stormy night with the engine out, you may be glad you gutted through your last 20-30 sims...because that might be the night all that training...even with bad IPs at times...pays off big time.
Best advice I have is go at YOUR pace. Of COURSE the sim instructor gets bored watching you do stalls or steep turns...he's seen them 100 times the last three months...you haven't done them in 6 months or a year... Screw him. He or she is proably a good instructor and a good person, but they sometimes lose the fact that you dont' do this EVERY week. So go at your pace... You heard about configuing early, not rushing, etc....its all good advice. "Snapshotting" around can really diminish your SA too. If your instructor is constantly freezing and reseting you during the sim, make sure you are 100% ready to go before you call ready. The extra 30-60 seconds to have navaids set, trim set, approach plates ready, etc can help prevent a rushed or frustrating approach down the road.
No excuses, however, for showing up not knowing procedures, callouts, and ops limits cold. Control the variables YOU can control. A good oral is usually followed by a solid sim. Rarely is a marginal oral followed with a great sim. Preparation across the board helps. You WILL get better at preparing now that you've done this a few times...you sort of know what you need to study and where to focus. That is one of the factors that makes future sims easier.
Also--ask if you can sandbag a sim training period. I know at some operations that isn't an option, but in our last contract we are allowed to request an extra sim with certain restrictions. Doing a couple dozen V1 cuts the month prior to your checkride cannot hurt.
Another option--pay for some outside sim time prior to your ride. We used to routinely provide some sim training to a few DC-10 captains who wanted some extra work before their PCs. I don't know if it was pride, concern about job security, or just a desire to be prepared...but I had a lot of respect for the guys who would do this. They knew they had areas for improvement so they sought out the help they needed.
So--in my opinion--don't quit. I don't like the rubber glove treatment at my physicals....but I'm grateful for good health. Some dark and stormy night with the engine out, you may be glad you gutted through your last 20-30 sims...because that might be the night all that training...even with bad IPs at times...pays off big time.
07-20-2008, 10:57 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD-11/10 Captain
Posts: 533
There are two schools of thought here. The first says, "If you don't think that you can or want to do it, then do yourself and everybody else a favor and get out of flying". The second says, "Don't let one bad/marginal experience make you rush to a bad decision". I'd lean toward the second.
Those of us that are old and crotchity have all had experiences such as yours. I've personally stopped a couple of check/training rides to discuss the instructors attitude or approach to his job and whether or not I was going to continue with him/her that day. I once walked out of a debriefing because one of the instructors ticked me of so badly. I had no problem doing these things because I was confident that I was right. And I sure would not have let those experiences lead me to a poor decision. Like smacking the guy or quitting.
Give it time, Grasshoppa.
Those of us that are old and crotchity have all had experiences such as yours. I've personally stopped a couple of check/training rides to discuss the instructors attitude or approach to his job and whether or not I was going to continue with him/her that day. I once walked out of a debriefing because one of the instructors ticked me of so badly. I had no problem doing these things because I was confident that I was right. And I sure would not have let those experiences lead me to a poor decision. Like smacking the guy or quitting.
Give it time, Grasshoppa.
07-20-2008, 10:59 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by bryris
... However, the check airman ripped me up pretty good and in so many words told me that I should relish every paycheck the company gives me because my flying skills aren't worth crap...
How not to 'instruct' the pilot
07-20-2008, 12:21 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: Hotel
Posts: 714
Originally Posted by Ranger
There are two schools of thought here. The first says, "If you don't think that you can or want to do it, then do yourself and everybody else a favor and get out of flying". The second says, "Don't let one bad/marginal experience make you rush to a bad decision". I'd lean toward the second.
Those of us that are old and crotchity have all had experiences such as yours. I've personally stopped a couple of check/training rides to discuss the instructors attitude or approach to his job and whether or not I was going to continue with him/her that day. I once walked out of a debriefing because one of the instructors ticked me of so badly. I had no problem doing these things because I was confident that I was right. And I sure would not have let those experiences lead me to a poor decision. Like smacking the guy or quitting.
Give it time, Grasshoppa.
Those of us that are old and crotchity have all had experiences such as yours. I've personally stopped a couple of check/training rides to discuss the instructors attitude or approach to his job and whether or not I was going to continue with him/her that day. I once walked out of a debriefing because one of the instructors ticked me of so badly. I had no problem doing these things because I was confident that I was right. And I sure would not have let those experiences lead me to a poor decision. Like smacking the guy or quitting.
Give it time, Grasshoppa.
I majored in Accounting and worked as such for a couple years before pursuing professional aviation. Accounting certainly is more mundane, but it puts me home every night, every holiday off, every weekend off, no risk of junioring, no sitting in hotels or crashpads unpaid, no seniority to worry about (i.e. I move to a different city or switch firms, my new salary is comparable to my old because I bring my experience with me). And the ultimate goal for me would be to open my own small accounting practice in 5-6 years. I'd be 32 years old, BUSY AS HELL, but I'd be in charge. Whether the business succeeded or failed would be based on my actions, not the knuckle head moves of airline managements. I could meter my client base to suit my particular goals (more time off or more money), etc.
The latter sounds pretty cool.
I am DEFINITELY getting furloughed in 4-5 months anyway. There is no way around it. At my experience level, no one is hiring. I could go back to flight instruction, and I wouldn't have any problem with that, except for the lack of a quality paycheck. So, whether I like it or not, I am being forced out of professional aviation before long. I might just take it as an opportunity to move on with a different path.
But, if I decide I can't stand not flying, I'll wait until the next upswing and jump back on.
Edit: I say not flying, I mean, not flying professionally. I will NEVER live without flying on a regular basis. However, GA flying is where my heart really lies. A nice Cessna or Cherokee to fly on the weekends, a couple students on the side for the evenings and weekends would keep me satisfied.
Last edited by bryris; 07-20-2008 at 12:41 PM.
07-20-2008, 01:10 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 888
Originally Posted by bryris
Either way, for family reasons, and considering I am going to be furloughed in 4 months anyway, I am likely going to pull out of commercial aviation as a career. Its been a dream of mine since I was young, but the box is checked now. I did it! But, the thought of enduring another 35 years of this industry to pursue this as a career gives me nausea.
I'll just go buy me a Cessna 172 or something similar and fly for fun without all the associated BS. If I could snag a few students on the side in a freelance type of situation, that'd be enough to keep me satisfied with aviation.
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