Gentlemen (& ladies), thank you for your hard work!
08-08-2008, 06:21 AM
#21
Feeling blessed.
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Was I finally in the right place at the right time?
Posts: 537
I welcome the neophite posts. Advice: when asking a question, it might be useful to let everyone know you're not a pilot.
Having said all that, unless you've been through it, no one really knows what a b!tch this industry is.
Three things to consider.
1) It's amazing how unflexible and narrow some of these airline business models are.
2) It's amazing how much reducing and managing costs factors into a business in relation to generating revenue. What I mean is, that because of #1 above, that a business retreats into reducing costs instead of finding new ways to generate revenue, particularly due to their inflexibility. The US airline industry is the only industry that I know of that consistently sells it's product below cost! I understand market share, but to sell your soul to get it is pointless. What good is a market that you can't afford to support?
3) Many outside the industry can't seem to comprehend that when someone leaves an airline, voluntarily or not, that you have to start all over at the bottom in terms of pay. Your experience might get you an interview, but it won't get you the job, nor will there be any other special considerations once you get the job. Example: There are many pilots with well over ten years experience at their previous employer, 15,000+ flight hours over their careers, multiple airlines and aircraft types on their resumes and they can't get (or find) a flying job that pays them more than $20,000/yr. I have 10,000 hours and I'm low time!
In 2004 I made $125K as a B737NG captain at the 10th largest carrier in the nation. In 2005 I took a 60% paycut to "save the airline." In April of this year, I was out of a job because my airline shut down. My wife was a FA at the same airline for 24 years. I'm now DO of a one-airplane operation, a POS airplane I might add, awaiting FAA certification making about $37K with no benefits. I haven't flown an airplane since Mar. 29. My wife sells landscape and irrigation services for a commission, a company car and $250/wk. I have many friends and coworkers still looking for a job, any job, a few that have gone to Asia to fly and a couple that at 40 are now "retired airline pilots."
My suggestion to upper managment: Leave your ego at the country club. the airlines will eat it with salt. Question your decisions and be ready to change your mind. (Gordon Bethune once asked: "How much will it cost us not to do it?" "From Worst to First") If you think you're on top, someone is trying to knock you off. If your business fails, let it fail. Part of the problem is that failed businesses (airlines) are allowed to continue to operate, degrading the industry as a whole. Don't slit your mother's throat for market share. Adapt, adjust, overcome.....or run like hell!
Welcome to sickening world of aviation. It's addictive. It's still not out of my blood.
Having said all that, unless you've been through it, no one really knows what a b!tch this industry is.
Three things to consider.
1) It's amazing how unflexible and narrow some of these airline business models are.
2) It's amazing how much reducing and managing costs factors into a business in relation to generating revenue. What I mean is, that because of #1 above, that a business retreats into reducing costs instead of finding new ways to generate revenue, particularly due to their inflexibility. The US airline industry is the only industry that I know of that consistently sells it's product below cost! I understand market share, but to sell your soul to get it is pointless. What good is a market that you can't afford to support?
3) Many outside the industry can't seem to comprehend that when someone leaves an airline, voluntarily or not, that you have to start all over at the bottom in terms of pay. Your experience might get you an interview, but it won't get you the job, nor will there be any other special considerations once you get the job. Example: There are many pilots with well over ten years experience at their previous employer, 15,000+ flight hours over their careers, multiple airlines and aircraft types on their resumes and they can't get (or find) a flying job that pays them more than $20,000/yr. I have 10,000 hours and I'm low time!
In 2004 I made $125K as a B737NG captain at the 10th largest carrier in the nation. In 2005 I took a 60% paycut to "save the airline." In April of this year, I was out of a job because my airline shut down. My wife was a FA at the same airline for 24 years. I'm now DO of a one-airplane operation, a POS airplane I might add, awaiting FAA certification making about $37K with no benefits. I haven't flown an airplane since Mar. 29. My wife sells landscape and irrigation services for a commission, a company car and $250/wk. I have many friends and coworkers still looking for a job, any job, a few that have gone to Asia to fly and a couple that at 40 are now "retired airline pilots."
My suggestion to upper managment: Leave your ego at the country club. the airlines will eat it with salt. Question your decisions and be ready to change your mind. (Gordon Bethune once asked: "How much will it cost us not to do it?" "From Worst to First") If you think you're on top, someone is trying to knock you off. If your business fails, let it fail. Part of the problem is that failed businesses (airlines) are allowed to continue to operate, degrading the industry as a whole. Don't slit your mother's throat for market share. Adapt, adjust, overcome.....or run like hell!
Welcome to sickening world of aviation. It's addictive. It's still not out of my blood.
08-08-2008, 08:42 AM
#22
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 31
HalinTexas and everyone else, I value your input and replies to my post! Thank you for taking the time. You all have valid points and I do think it is important for people outside of the industry to become aware of how things are for you. Perhaps people cannot relate because they simply do not know?
Just like I didn't know until I actually met one of you.
The more they can relate, the more that attention will be drawn to the situation and hopefully new, creative solutions can come about. We all want to keep flying. We just don't know much about what is going on except that everyone in your industry blames everyone else and oil for the heavy losses. Sometimes you even fight among yourselves! Groups of pilots pitched against groups of pilots...it is disturbing and unsettling to see from an outsider's perspective.
May I just add that I find most of you to have a peculiar and great sense of humor! You have no idea how hard I have laughed at some of the posts I have read here. I can relate to you as regular people as well, not just the people that I never see who take me from one country to the other. You have no idea how important that is.
I guess most of us outsiders have this notion that pilots are terribly serious and focused individuals, analytical and a bit difficult to approach because of the seriousness involved in what you do. You are all of that, thank God (I wouldn't want anyone else other than you guys flying the plane I am on), yet I have found out that you are great folks as well, in general. It's refreshing and pleasant.
Just like I didn't know until I actually met one of you.
The more they can relate, the more that attention will be drawn to the situation and hopefully new, creative solutions can come about. We all want to keep flying. We just don't know much about what is going on except that everyone in your industry blames everyone else and oil for the heavy losses. Sometimes you even fight among yourselves! Groups of pilots pitched against groups of pilots...it is disturbing and unsettling to see from an outsider's perspective.
May I just add that I find most of you to have a peculiar and great sense of humor! You have no idea how hard I have laughed at some of the posts I have read here. I can relate to you as regular people as well, not just the people that I never see who take me from one country to the other. You have no idea how important that is.
I guess most of us outsiders have this notion that pilots are terribly serious and focused individuals, analytical and a bit difficult to approach because of the seriousness involved in what you do. You are all of that, thank God (I wouldn't want anyone else other than you guys flying the plane I am on), yet I have found out that you are great folks as well, in general. It's refreshing and pleasant.
08-08-2008, 10:24 AM
#23
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 2
I'm not a pilot, either, and I have no connection at all to the airline industry. In truth, I only registered so I could add my comments to this thread, and I may never post again, because I'm well aware that this site is for working pilots.
I've been lurking on this forum for over a year. I now know more than I ever wanted to know about runway incursions, air traffic controllers, traffic issues at various airports, etc. However, considering how seriously every single one of you takes your job, I feel a lot less nervous when flying now, and I certainly don't think of pilots as glorified bus drivers. The truth is that you have to be prepared to take on any emergency, and you all do a great job. I'd never say that an airline pilot is overpaid! When you compare a pilot's job to an athlete's job, which one is more important and requires more training?
As a member of the PAX crowd, it's embarrassing that we're seen as annoying, demanding, and downright ridiculous. That is indeed the truth, but some of us aren't so bad. I'm even old enough to remember flying back in the early 70s, when flying was a big deal, when people would get dressed up and show their appreciation and respect.
I also know better than to blame scheduling issues, mechanical problems, loss of luggage, and so on, on the pilots. It's not easy to move so many people efficiently, and while the system could definitely be improved, again this is not the fault of the pilots.
Now that I've added my voice to the accolades, I'll probably go back to lurking. Thanks again, everyone.
I've been lurking on this forum for over a year. I now know more than I ever wanted to know about runway incursions, air traffic controllers, traffic issues at various airports, etc. However, considering how seriously every single one of you takes your job, I feel a lot less nervous when flying now, and I certainly don't think of pilots as glorified bus drivers. The truth is that you have to be prepared to take on any emergency, and you all do a great job. I'd never say that an airline pilot is overpaid! When you compare a pilot's job to an athlete's job, which one is more important and requires more training?
As a member of the PAX crowd, it's embarrassing that we're seen as annoying, demanding, and downright ridiculous. That is indeed the truth, but some of us aren't so bad. I'm even old enough to remember flying back in the early 70s, when flying was a big deal, when people would get dressed up and show their appreciation and respect.
I also know better than to blame scheduling issues, mechanical problems, loss of luggage, and so on, on the pilots. It's not easy to move so many people efficiently, and while the system could definitely be improved, again this is not the fault of the pilots.
Now that I've added my voice to the accolades, I'll probably go back to lurking. Thanks again, everyone.
08-08-2008, 10:42 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
Mod note:
Upon review of the TOS, all I can find about posting at APC is: "We're all here primarily to discuss the piloting profession; we all share in the good and the bad that this industry has to offer..." It doesn't say you have to be a pilot to post here (I once thought the same). As part of the site leadership, I think it's safe to say non-pilots are welcome. We are quick to move them to the non-pro forums if it becomes obvious they shouldn't be posting in the pro-forums, but I'm not seeing a hint of that in this thread.
Any comments about how the forum is run should be PMed to the admins, HSLD or Freight Dog. Thanks....
Upon review of the TOS, all I can find about posting at APC is: "We're all here primarily to discuss the piloting profession; we all share in the good and the bad that this industry has to offer..." It doesn't say you have to be a pilot to post here (I once thought the same). As part of the site leadership, I think it's safe to say non-pilots are welcome. We are quick to move them to the non-pro forums if it becomes obvious they shouldn't be posting in the pro-forums, but I'm not seeing a hint of that in this thread.
Any comments about how the forum is run should be PMed to the admins, HSLD or Freight Dog. Thanks....
08-08-2008, 10:57 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Tinkerbell
Hi there again!
Hmmm... I was fully aware that if I participated in the forum and posted something, some people would not like it and perhaps take offense. I apologize if that is the case for those of you who would rather not have regular people like me participate in your forums.
However, I do believe that a dialogue is enriched with different points of view. I really enjoy reading about your experiences (who knows, maybe I was a pilot in another life, I have no idea) and simply wanted to let you know that. I am interested in knowing who is at the helm of the plane I am flying on...when I think hard about it, my life depends on it...a lot. I fly very often. Why would I not want to know a bit about you guys?
On the other hand, it is also good for you to hear how much some of us who stop to think about it appreciate the work you do. Forget the mgmt vs. employee issues for a second. That was not the point I wanted to make. The point I want to reinforce is that heck, I appreciate what you do for a living. Very much so. And it seems to me that other than yourselves and your peers, not a whole lot of other people are aware of what it takes.
I am happy to say thank you and to praise you. Whether anyone wants to accept a compliment or not is out of my realm. But if it is coming and if it is FREE, why not?
Hmmm... I was fully aware that if I participated in the forum and posted something, some people would not like it and perhaps take offense. I apologize if that is the case for those of you who would rather not have regular people like me participate in your forums.
However, I do believe that a dialogue is enriched with different points of view. I really enjoy reading about your experiences (who knows, maybe I was a pilot in another life, I have no idea) and simply wanted to let you know that. I am interested in knowing who is at the helm of the plane I am flying on...when I think hard about it, my life depends on it...a lot. I fly very often. Why would I not want to know a bit about you guys?
On the other hand, it is also good for you to hear how much some of us who stop to think about it appreciate the work you do. Forget the mgmt vs. employee issues for a second. That was not the point I wanted to make. The point I want to reinforce is that heck, I appreciate what you do for a living. Very much so. And it seems to me that other than yourselves and your peers, not a whole lot of other people are aware of what it takes.
I am happy to say thank you and to praise you. Whether anyone wants to accept a compliment or not is out of my realm
. But if it is coming and if it is FREE, why not?If not...please, PLEASE get a new screen name...
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 08-08-2008 at 11:28 AM.
08-08-2008, 11:03 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by de727ups
Mod note:
Upon review of the TOS, all I can find about posting at APC is: "We're all here primarily to discuss the piloting profession; we all share in the good and the bad that this industry has to offer..." It doesn't say you have to be a pilot to post here (I once thought the same). As part of the site leadership, I think it's safe to say non-pilots are welcome. We are quick to move them to the non-pro forums if it becomes obvious they shouldn't be posting in the pro-forums, but I'm not seeing a hint of that in this thread.
Any comments about how the forum is run should be PMed to the admins, HSLD or Freight Dog. Thanks....
Upon review of the TOS, all I can find about posting at APC is: "We're all here primarily to discuss the piloting profession; we all share in the good and the bad that this industry has to offer..." It doesn't say you have to be a pilot to post here (I once thought the same). As part of the site leadership, I think it's safe to say non-pilots are welcome. We are quick to move them to the non-pro forums if it becomes obvious they shouldn't be posting in the pro-forums, but I'm not seeing a hint of that in this thread.
Any comments about how the forum is run should be PMed to the admins, HSLD or Freight Dog. Thanks....
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You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. If you're a working pilot, please join our free community and you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you don't want to register (or not a working pilot), you can still use the Google search box in the upper left of this screen to search all forum posts!
Standing by for this post to be censored...
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 08-08-2008 at 11:30 AM.
08-08-2008, 11:44 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by Tinkerbell
The fact is, if one airline is doing well, it means that the possibility for better management exists and that it can be done with enough foresight and careful planning, and working as a team with all of the companies' employees.
Wow, you managed to use mangement, airline and team all in one sentence. I don't think that has been done before.
08-08-2008, 12:12 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"Kindly enforce all of the site's rules as vigorously as you enforce my transgressions"
I wouldn't call it a rule unless it's in the TOS. In any case, I see your point. It's obvious we welcome non-pilots to post at the site. I'll leave it to an admin to address this further.
I wouldn't call it a rule unless it's in the TOS. In any case, I see your point. It's obvious we welcome non-pilots to post at the site. I'll leave it to an admin to address this further.
08-08-2008, 12:29 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by de727ups
I wouldn't call it a rule unless it's in the TOS.
What makes this site unique (besides its fairly aggressive and irritating censorship) is that it's set up to be a "pilots-only" experience.
If I want a discussion involving aviation enthusiasts in general, I would go to airliners.net, etc.
The pilots-only community here is quite singular. You would do well to acknowledge your niche...and the value of maintaining to it.
