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AA, APA at odds over taxiing incident
Er, just what the heck happened?
American Airlines, pilots at odds over taxiing incident 5:02 PM Tue, Sep 09, 2008 | Permalink | Yahoo! Buzz Terry Maxon http://www.dallasnews.com/blogs/images/email-icon.jpg E-mail http://www.dallasnews.com/blogs/images/email-icon.jpg News tips In May, a management pilot at American Airlines was taxiing his airplane behind that of a pilot at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport and decided the Los Angeles-based pilot was deliberately taxiing too slow. As a result, the pilot in front has been suspended 15 days without pay, and the pilots' union, the Allied Pilots Association, is all in an uproar. An American spokeswoman Tuesday defended the disciplinary action, but the incident has union officials yelling foul. "The facts are undeniable," the Miami-based APA officers told their members in an email. "The resolution of this incident by a morally devoid Flight Management team should send a chill down everyone's spine." "In my 30 years of employment with American Airlines I have never witnessed anything so blatantly ridiculous," the Chicago-based APA officers wrote, adding: "Make sure everyone you know has the opportunity to read and understand just how low our once great airline has fallen and to what extent the management of American Airlines will go to disparage and belittle it's employees." The St. Louis union officers wrote that the incident "shows you the depth of poor labor relations here at AA and the lack of moderation on the part of the company when it deals with its pilots." For details, keep reading. First, American spokeswoman Tami McLallen didn't discuss the particulars, but sent this statement: As you know, we take safety issues very seriously. Saying it is our number one priority isn't just an empty slogan, it's what we focus on each and every day. So when we see actions that we believe may compromise safety, it's our responsibility to investigate and take corrective action if needed. As this is an internal personnel matter, we won't comment on the specifics, however in a message to pilots yesterday, Vice President-Flight Mark Hettermann said "Typically, the flight department doesn't comment on disciplinary cases. Proper protocol dictates that this matter remains as private as possible between the pilot and his manager. While we disagree with the APA's decision to publically discuss the details of this case, it's especially disappointing that they haven't provided full disclosure of the facts." And here's the long explanation from the Los Angeles-based union leadership:By now you have probably heard of the incident in DFW on May 30th that involved one of our LAX-based pilots was accused by Captain Jeff Osborne (Managing Director of Flight -System) of taxiing too slow across a runway. Captain Osborne (B737) was clearing runway 18L behind our LAX Captain (S80) and Captain Osborne felt that our LAX Captain did not clear the runway fast enough. For some unknown reason Captain Osborne was very concerned for his own safety even though he was crossing a departure runway for which no other aircraft had been cleared to take-off or land. Captain Osborne was so concerned about this incident that he used his cell phone while actively taxiing his aircraft (in violation of both Federal Aviation Regulations and Flight Manual Part 1) to contact SOC and have our Captain removed from the trip. Captain Osborne later directed LAX Director of Flight Captain Bob Bush to conduct a Section 21 hearing regarding the incident. Our LAX based Captain was placed on "Paid Withheld" status (PW) for three months while the LAX Flight Office conducted the investigation demanded by Captain Osborne. The Investigation Upon first receiving the directive from Captain Osborne to conduct a Section 21 hearing, Captain Bush conducted an investigation and found no cause to pursue the issue. Captain Bush actually called the LAX Captain and apologized for even bringing this up, but explained that Captain Osborne was insisting on a Section 21 hearing regardless of the facts. Two separate hearings were held, and in both cases there was no documentation or charges ever produced from the FAA, DFW Tower, or DFW Ground. Based upon this fact alone we can clearly see that the only one who had a problem with this situation was Captain Osborne. The only evidence that we had been given was: The written statement of Captain Osborne claiming "a blatant disregard for flight safety" and an intent "to cause an inconvenience to our local and connecting customers, intentionally disrupt our operation, and harm our company" An audio recording of the DFW tower frequency in which no safety problem is noted by the Tower controllers A video of the ramp arrival of the LAX flight which shows only normal ramp traffic A statement from an AA Ground School Instructor who was jump-seating on Osborne's flight, a statement which was dated two months after the incident. This statement notes that Captain Osborne's aircraft was on runway 18L for only a "few seconds", and that upon arriving at the ramp, Captain Osborne then encountered a long delay because his gate was occupied. The Verdict During and after both hearings that we conducted, Captain Bush stated several times "I can not find anything here...there is no reason to discipline...this was ops normal" and proceeded to communicate this to Captain Osborne, but Captain Osborne was not going to allow this to pass without some sort of punishment for his perceptions. As a result of this Kangaroo Court our LAX Captain has been given 15 days off with no pay, based solely upon Captain Osborne's statement and a Ground School Instructor's letter dated 2 months after the incident. The Double Standard There has been no action initiated by the FAA against our LAX pilot, and no reports on this incident were ever received from either the DFW Tower or DFW Ground Control. Captain Osborne insisted on discipline even after he was told repeatedly that the Section 21 hearings were showing no evidence that supported his claims. Captain Osborne uses his cell phone while taxing an airplane (in violation of FARs and AA company policy) and our LAX Captain gets 15 days off without pay. Rest assured that the FAA was notified of Captain Osborne's cell phone use. At this point we don't know what is more disgusting to us--that Captain Osborne insisted on punishing this pilot regardless of the facts, or that Captain Bush has issued the letter of discipline after apologizing initially and then stating several times in hearings that "I cannot find anything here...there is no reason to discipline...this was ops normal". What This Means to You We can only conclude after sitting through this whole joke of a process that our pilots are in jeopardy simply for coming in contact with the Chief Pilots, and that you should avoid any conversation with them except that which is absolutely essential to your duties. Idle chitchat with the Chiefs should be avoided, because anything you say to them can be used against you or another pilot in a disciplinary hearing. If asked to engage in conversations politely inform them that your Union speaks for you. As for Captain Osborne we would imagine his "do not pair with" list is growing by the minute in DFW. One Final Note This is not the airline of days of old when your Chief Pilot is sometimes your advocate and could solve minor issues without interference from DFW Flt. Dept. management. In this day and age, all the Chief pilots are just messengers with rubber stamps. Employee Relations writes the Hearing Notices, and Captains Osborne and/or Hettermann determine the results of hearings in advance. We cannot understand why under these circumstances anyone would want to be a Chief pilot, or why they have not all quit under this current VP of Flight. APA will fight for this Captain with all of the resources we have. All of us need to stand behind this Captain and stop this abuse. We have seen this management team assault our contract, and compromise our safety time and time again. Enough is enough! |
Its taken a lot of work to make that place the pit it is.
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How will APA deal with this issue? The entire team needs to be on the same page...
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Any chance this Captain will get his $5-7K back that he lost during his 15 days off? I think he has sacrificed enough for the company with his large pay cut so AMR could avoid bankruptcy. This makes me sick..
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Originally Posted by Roper92
(Post 459579)
Any chance this Captain will get his $5-7K back that he lost during his 15 days off? I think he has sacrificed enough for the company with his large pay cut so AMR could avoid bankruptcy. This makes me sick..
I hope the guy gets busted for using the cell phone to call and report the guy. Flew AA a couple weeks ago. Forgot I had to pay to check bags, so I made a snarky comment to the agent (not AT her, TO her) about keeping Arpey in multi-million dollar paychecks so that he could run the airline into the dirt. she laughed and dug my comment. |
Let me understand this; a pilot was suspended for taxiing too slow across a runway? Unless the pilot was requested to expedite across and didn’t or he caused an incursion, I just don’t see the problem. Isn’t it the pilot’s judgment on how fast to taxi their aircraft? I would like to listen to the CVR tapes from Cpt Osborne’s aircraft. But I’m betting they don’t exist anymore. Typical management
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Originally Posted by stinsonjr
(Post 459599)
From what I have heard, AA Captains have a lot of stuff to do prior to take off - more than other pilots. I think the checklists and procedures are different for them, but not sure how. Anyway, to have to deal with all the stuff they have to do, operate the tiller, stay off active runways, etc...no wonder they taxi slow.
I hope the guy gets busted for using the cell phone to call and report the guy. Flew AA a couple weeks ago. Forgot I had to pay to check bags, so I made a snarky comment to the agent (not AT her, TO her) about keeping Arpey in multi-million dollar paychecks so that he could run the airline into the dirt. she laughed and dug my comment. We never know. Lots of ATC controller ask, "Hey American do you have your numbers?" For the whole time i've flown for American pilots have asked for SWA's closeout system of Laptop atog's and agent closeout sheet at main cabin door departure. The answer is always "our system is fine" I don't think so, we waste tons of fuel waiting on numbers. On taxi in, many times we do not know if our gate is avail. Most often it is occupied. This may account for most of our slow taxi on arrival. The last few years some of us call ahead to see if our gate is available on arrival. But most of the time we never know. In fact we are not supposed to call our ramp control until AFTER crossing all active runways and then contacting ground control, then call ramp. As far as the ex TWA pilots response above, it is interesting how people only remember the good things about their previous employer. They remember none of the bad stuff. |
Originally Posted by 7576FO
(Post 459674)
On taxi in, many times we do not know if our gate is avail. Most often it is occupied. This may account for most of our slow taxi on arrival.
. The gate situation is the thing that irritates me the most about AA. Flying into DFW on AA I always sit waiting for the gate and I always wondered why. I have never had this issue on Delta at ATL and was wondering if it was simply because Delta had better procedures/more prepared or if I have just gotten lucky when connecting. In my view Arpey is only marginally better than Tilton, if any. |
Originally Posted by 7576FO
(Post 459674)
One of the reasons we taxi slowly is we never know when we'll receive our load closeout over the acars printer. We cannot take-off until we have this. Sometimes we get it before pushback. Sometimes we have to wait in the penalty box for closeout numbers.
We never know. Lots of ATC controller ask, "Hey American do you have your numbers?" For the whole time i've flown for American pilots have asked for SWA's closeout system of Laptop atog's and agent closeout sheet at main cabin door departure. The answer is always "our system is fine" I don't think so, we waste tons of fuel waiting on numbers. |
Originally Posted by stinsonjr
(Post 459704)
The gate situation is the thing that irritates me the most about AA. Flying into DFW on AA I always sit waiting for the gate and I always wondered why. I have never had this issue on Delta at ATL and was wondering if it was simply because Delta had better procedures/more prepared or if I have just gotten lucky when connecting.
In my view Arpey is only marginally better than Tilton, if any. I feel ya!!!!!! |
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 459706)
At Delta, we get our final numbers over the ACARS, but at the gate, and we still pushback on time. We even get updated numbers as the aircraft is being loaded. I can't imagine what takes the AA load planners and dispatchers so long to generate the numbers.
I don't know either. I've heard that we do not use the bag location scanners. But they should have our bag count as soon as the cargo doors are closed. Then they walkie talkie the #'s to ops or crew chief, then they enter it in the computer, it goes to loads in Tulsa, Tulsa minimizes their online poker game briefly, looks at the load #'s, then restores their online poker game & plays 2-4 hands, then minimizes, then restores the loads page & takes a cell phone call from home, then enters SEND. Meanwhile, ATC and all other airlines are taxiing around us. But our management thinks it's a great system. We are so 1961 technology. |
What ever happened to taxi pace being a "brisk walk"?
It's hard to walk 150-200 ft. in less than a couple seconds. Most folks walk @ 3-4 mph. I'd say a "brisk walk" is no more than 5 mph, @ best (every try to use a treadmill and not run @ 5 mph. It's tough). Think about a 10,000 ft runway - it should take you 22 minutes to taxi the length of it @ 5 mph. I doubt that this AA pilot was anywhere near that speed. Isn't there aircraft data that could be pulled to show his speed? Not that it seems to matter in this case (I wonder what AA's side is). It's pathetic to see this level of micromanagement at any company, but to see it from the current largest airline in the world sets a very poor example for others. |
Originally Posted by 7576FO
(Post 459674)
I fly for AA. We have a taxi checklist that is short. Then a mechanical checklist which is relatively long compared to other airlines. One of the reasons we taxi slowly is we never know when we'll receive our load closeout over the acars printer. We cannot take-off until we have this. Sometimes we get it before pushback. Sometimes we have to wait in the penalty box for closeout numbers.
We never know. Lots of ATC controller ask, "Hey American do you have your numbers?" For the whole time i've flown for American pilots have asked for SWA's closeout system of Laptop atog's and agent closeout sheet at main cabin door departure. The answer is always "our system is fine" I don't think so, we waste tons of fuel waiting on numbers. On taxi in, many times we do not know if our gate is avail. Most often it is occupied. This may account for most of our slow taxi on arrival. The last few years some of us call ahead to see if our gate is available on arrival. But most of the time we never know. In fact we are not supposed to call our ramp control until AFTER crossing all active runways and then contacting ground control, then call ramp. As far as the ex TWA pilots response above, it is interesting how people only remember the good things about their previous employer. They remember none of the bad stuff. Everything that would normally be done on a taxi check is done on the before start or before takeoff. The before takeoff is every short, though. Departure announcement, Flaps/TO Config Check, any changes to the TO brief (that was done at the gate) and turning on the xpndr. CAL's idea is to keep the pilots looking outside and not distracted while taxiing around. Works pretty well. |
Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis
(Post 459748)
Funny, at CAL on the 756 we have NO taxi checklist whatsoever. Everything is done and set up prior to push, including the numbers. Granted, sometimes they might be a little late and a CA will push without them, but by the time we're disconnected from the tug, the printer has rolled out the info. It's usually uplinked through the FMC before the printer gets it, anyway.
Everything that would normally be done on a taxi check is done on the before start or before takeoff. The before takeoff is every short, though. Departure announcement, Flaps/TO Config Check, any changes to the TO brief (that was done at the gate) and turning on the xpndr. CAL's idea is to keep the pilots looking outside and not distracted while taxiing around. Works pretty well. Taxi: Isolation switches Packs Cargo heat Engine anti ice APU Flaps Flight controls EICAS display EGPWS Recall --------------------------- Before T/O: T/O Data and bugs T/R panel MCP/Radios Stab trim Flaps Autobrakes Anti ice Map display T/O PA Packs Lights To top it off, most of this can't be done until we get our load closeout, which usually comes up during taxi. Now you can see why we have to taxi out so slow. On taxi in, it's usually waiting for a gate. 73 |
Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 459755)
We would LOVE to have your checklist at CAL. AA's 757/767 taxi/before TO checklist:
Taxi: Isolation switches Packs Cargo heat Engine anti ice APU Flaps Flight controls EICAS display EGPWS Recall --------------------------- Before T/O: T/O Data and bugs T/R panel MCP/Radios Stab trim Flaps Autobrakes Anti ice Map display T/O PA Packs Lights To top it off, most of this can't be done until we get our load closeout, which usually comes up during taxi. Now you can see why we have to taxi out so slow. On taxi in, it's usually waiting for a gate. 73 Before Start (from memory, forgive me): Door Lights Out Fuel Beacon Seat belt sign Reference Speeds CDU Trim Flight Controls After Start: Engine Anti Ice Isolation Switch Packs EICAS Recall Autobrakes RTO Flaps Flight Deck Door Closed Xpndr Before TO: Departure briefing (if any changes) Departure Announcement Flaps/TO config checked Xpndr TARA |
Wow. Nice. You don't even wanna see what our Before Start looks like. Oh well, maybe someday our airline will catch up with the times.
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To be fair.... taxiing behind an AA MD80 can be extremely frustrating, especially if you have a commute to catch. I always laugh in Chicago about how they have one speed they go if they think you might get in front of them for departure, but then another speed once they've established themselves in front. I don't care how fast you taxi, but don't hold up everybody else.
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wow. after reading that letter, all i gotta say is what the F...?! how did they get away with this!
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And now for the real twist in this story...
The LAX captain suspended is a former CAL pilot accused of crossing the picket line at CAL in 1983. His only crime here at AA was to cross the active runway taxiing on a single engine and then stop too soon on the other side. Unfortunately the chief was in the aircraft behind him and followed across, but didn't have enough space to clear the runway. He later accused this captain, who scabbed at CAL, of doing it deliberately. The ensuing show trial--in which APA spent thousands--resulted in a 15 day suspension. On top of all that, the LAX base has started a donation drive which has produced more than enough money to make this captain whole. Chances are this will be overturned in an arbitration and the worst that will have happen is that the LAX captain in question will have earned a 15 day paid leave. Captain Osborn is under investigation by the FAA for using his cell phone during taxi ops to report the LAX captain. I believe the term I would use at this point is: a cruel irony. |
The Tools and Fools of AMR Mgt.
It never seems to admaze me the Indiviuals that are willing to sell out their fellow pilot's in an effort to advance themself's up the Tool and Fools list...:mad:
CA. "Tool" Osborne should be placed on everyone's NO Jumpseat List for his clear disregard of the FAR's.. |
Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis
(Post 459748)
Funny, at CAL on the 756 we have NO taxi checklist whatsoever. Everything is done and set up prior to push, including the numbers. Granted, sometimes they might be a little late and a CA will push without them, but by the time we're disconnected from the tug, the printer has rolled out the info. It's usually uplinked through the FMC before the printer gets it, anyway.
Everything that would normally be done on a taxi check is done on the before start or before takeoff. The before takeoff is every short, though. Departure announcement, Flaps/TO Config Check, any changes to the TO brief (that was done at the gate) and turning on the xpndr. CAL's idea is to keep the pilots looking outside and not distracted while taxiing around. Works pretty well. Do everyone a favor at CAL and just stick to the procedures. We don't need any "cowboys." |
Originally Posted by 7576FO
(Post 459674)
As far as the ex TWA pilots response above, it is interesting how people only remember the good things about their previous employer. They remember none of the bad stuff.
In the short time before my furlough from American, I can remember both jumpseating and operating under American's procedures and it was noteworthy how long-winded their briefings were and how distracting and ergonomically inefficent some of their procedure were. For instance, my experience recalls that the Capt on the taxi-out did most of the work, while the F/O sat there and marveled what it would be like to be a Capt. In addition, I never got the fascination with the whole turn on/turn off the checklist items, light-gadget that was unique to American Airlines aircraft. From student pilots to airline crews most of use a piece of paper to challenge and respond. Finally, in reference to the hand gernade you threw out regarding TWA ? Please thrill us with how this relates to a pilot getting busting for taxiing slow. Maybe it's just my humble opinion, but whenever I run into former TWA pilots they always always always say how they miss TWA mostly because of the people that worked there. Whenever I come across former AA pilots here at UPS they always say how thankful they are to have left AA and the reason...the people and the infighting. So yes, as a former TWA employee, still furloughed from AA; I do have fond memories of TWA because of the co-workers I worked with. Apparently, this sentiment is something not understood by American Airlines employees. FF |
Originally Posted by Oldfreightdawg
(Post 459943)
And now for the real twist in this story...
The LAX captain suspended is a former CAL pilot accused of crossing the picket line at CAL in 1983. His only crime here at AA was to cross the active runway taxiing on a single engine and then stop too soon on the other side. Unfortunately the chief was in the aircraft behind him and followed across, but didn't have enough space to clear the runway. He later accused this captain, who scabbed at CAL, of doing it deliberately. The ensuing show trial--in which APA spent thousands--resulted in a 15 day suspension. On top of all that, the LAX base has started a donation drive which has produced more than enough money to make this captain whole. Chances are this will be overturned in an arbitration and the worst that will have happen is that the LAX captain in question will have earned a 15 day paid leave. Captain Osborn is under investigation by the FAA for using his cell phone during taxi ops to report the LAX captain. I believe the term I would use at this point is: a cruel irony. I may have to change my views on this event. Maybe Capt. Osborn is not really the evil one, after all.:eek: |
Before the merger and the total revamping of our procedures our taxi check on the 757 was : Flaps ....5 (or 15) planned, 5 (or 15) indicated. That's it. Now it includes a bunch of stuff we did on our before pushback flow. 90% of the stuff on your checklists should be done as a flow anyway. Checklists are for the big items that get you killed.
Our checkairmen fought and fought to keep our clean sytem but lost to the check and recheck and verify, and check mentality from the other side. We also had a weight and balance system that had our trim sheets done by the station and printed out at the jetway before we closed the door. Worked well and it put the onus on the sttion to be on top of the numbers. Now we push back and wait for our numbers that get transmitted from the gate to ops to central load planning in PIT where the load agent minimizes the poker screen........ |
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 459800)
To be fair.... taxiing behind an AA MD80 can be extremely frustrating, especially if you have a commute to catch. I always laugh in Chicago about how they have one speed they go if they think you might get in front of them for departure, but then another speed once they've established themselves in front. I don't care how fast you taxi, but don't hold up everybody else.
Or could it be ... They go one speed before they get their numbers. And another speed when they have their numbers and have the checklists complete. Probably closer to the truth. And I have never even seen the cockpit of an AMR aircraft, how would I know ? I am staying at a Holiday Inn Express ! ;) Later, the Brown CC |
Originally Posted by FliFast
(Post 460322)
In the short time before my furlough from American, I can remember both jumpseating and operating under American's procedures and it was noteworthy how long-winded their briefings were and how distracting and ergonomically inefficent some of their procedure were. For instance, my experience recalls that the Capt on the taxi-out did most of the work, while the F/O sat there and marveled what it would be like to be a Capt. In addition, I never got the fascination with the whole turn on/turn off the checklist items, light-gadget that was unique to American Airlines aircraft. From student pilots to airline crews most of use a piece of paper to challenge and respond.
Finally, in reference to the hand gernade you threw out regarding TWA ? Please thrill us with how this relates to a pilot getting busting for taxiing slow. Maybe it's just my humble opinion, but whenever I run into former TWA pilots they always always always say how they miss TWA mostly because of the people that worked there. Whenever I come across former AA pilots here at UPS they always say how thankful they are to have left AA and the reason...the people and the infighting. So yes, as a former TWA employee, still furloughed from AA; I do have fond memories of TWA because of the co-workers I worked with. Apparently, this sentiment is something not understood by American Airlines employees. FF Its taken a lot of work to make that place the pit it is. It was the 2nd post on this thread. 7576 |
The obvious: The "chief pilot" should be 1) removed from his position by a blatant disregard for FARs, sterile cockpit 2) Given a sim check for his blatant disregard for FARs 3) Be taken to task by the FAA for his blatant disregard for the FARs.
In the old days (or in some instances these days), a chief pilot was a position of leadership. Someone who had been there, done that, set the example of professionalism and standards, someone that not only could be an advocate for the company, but who had enough line experience to understand the line captain's perspective. Not some company stooge looking for a step up to the next rung. We all know or remember CPs that we could go in and talk with about some issue and others that you steered clear of. Simply, if this chief pilot is not removed from his position, at the least, you guys at AA have bigger problems other than management. I feel for ya. I wonder what his f/o was thinking as he is yammering away of his cell while on an active taxiway (taxiing or not). Time to get the ole United clickers out on this guy. He is a disgrace, no matter what the issue was or is with the other captain. |
Originally Posted by Busboy
(Post 460331)
Wait a minute...Is the LAX captain accused of being a scab? Or is he a scab?
I may have to change my views on this event. Maybe Capt. Osborn is not really the evil one, after all.:eek: |
Originally Posted by gufusu
(Post 460086)
How do you complete the before start checklist if you don't have the numbers? What's the hurry? Is it now okay to disregard procedures for the sake of expediency or maybe to SAVE THE AIRLINE?
Do everyone a favor at CAL and just stick to the procedures. We don't need any "cowboys." |
Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot
(Post 460378)
We ARE doing everyone a favor. Our numbers (if you read his post) ARE given to us before the start and pushback (95% of the time we receive them five to ten minutes prior to push......the other 5% is closer to push due to late bags, additional pax or change of runways which requires us to obtain another accuload). So, to answer your question, their is no hurry like you seem to think. What procedures are being disregarded? We get our numbers, check them with whats uploaded (or set them on the round dials), and then run our before start checklist BEFORE we begin the push. Simple, easy, and efficient. I don't see where this is disregarding any procedure since this is the way the airline wants us to do it. I think you have us confused with the another airline that taxi's like a scalded cat (or pig with lipstick if you like......:p) and ALWAYS seems to be in a hurry. Sorry to burst your bubble..............
Just say no to drinking and posting. |
Originally Posted by Busboy
(Post 460331)
Wait a minute...Is the LAX captain accused of being a scab? Or is he a scab?
I may have to change my views on this event. Maybe Capt. Osborn is not really the evil one, after all.:eek: Perhaps him getting help from his fellow aviators would show him what it means to be unified? That's IF he did what he's accused of doing. |
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
(Post 460335)
Or could it be ...
They go one speed before they get their numbers. And another speed when they have their numbers and have the checklists complete. Probably closer to the truth. And I have never even seen the cockpit of an AMR aircraft, how would I know ? I am staying at a Holiday Inn Express ! ;) Later, the Brown CC |
Originally Posted by gufusu
(Post 460383)
Reread his post.
Just say no to drinking and posting. |
Originally Posted by Spicy McHaggis
(Post 459748)
Granted, sometimes they might be a little late and a CA will push without them
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 460400)
Nope, the only time I ever see a AA MD-80 move with any speed it's to get in front of someone. Once they get in front of whoever, they go right back to their "waiting for numbers" speed.
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Originally Posted by FliFast
(Post 460322)
For instance, my experience recalls that the Capt on the taxi-out did most of the work, while the F/O sat there and marveled what it would be like to be a Capt. In addition, I never got the fascination with the whole turn on/turn off the checklist items, light-gadget that was unique to American Airlines aircraft. From student pilots to airline crews most of use a piece of paper to challenge and respond.
FF F/Os at AA are very busy on the taxi out completing the long taxi/before TO checklists we have, as you can see from my posts above. As such, certain tasks that at other airlines are the F/Os job, are delegated to the CA here at AA. The two that I am aware of are the "cabin notification PA", always made by the CA...("Flight attendants, prepare for takeoff") and the "takeoff imminent chime" given to the F/As when cleared onto the runway. Everything else is the F/Os job. So, I'm not quite sure where you get the impression that we are just "sitting there." I know I'm pretty busy on taxi out. Regarding the mechanical lighted checklist... well, it's been proven in several safety studies/audits that the mechanical checklist is the safest thing out there. Why? Every item can not be closed out until it's been called out and verified. In addition, if we return to gate or are interrupted, the whole thing needs to get re-opened and started from scratch. It's exactly the reason why today's airplanes have "electronic" checklists on the displays- for safety. The old "paper checklist" is only as good as your memory when it comes to remembering if you've done an item. With the mechanical, you KNOW it's been done - and closed out. This is one aspect where I am glad AA is different. Like you, when I came to AA, I was not too impressed with the mechanical checklist. After a few quick taxis and returns to gate, I quickly came to appreciate its value. If we find out that the Spanair MD80 crash was due to retracted flaps/slats - after they returned to the gate and then hustled back out - you can clearly see that, through the use of a paper checklist, it is a lot easier to forget an item has been completed. At AA, the whole mechanical checklist would've had to have been reopened and closed out, one item at a time. Different horses for different courses. I'll agree 100% that we wish we had TWA's friendly culture here. 73 |
I commute on AA every week to work and, as often as not ride in the cockpit jumpseat. And while none of their pilots taxi like I do when I'm on the Miller-leg and trying to catch my flight home, I don't see any dawdling by their crews. I do occasionally chide them for taking 40 years to set their altimeters correctly, however.
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Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 460447)
I call BS on that one. You may have seen an isolated incident, but for the most part we taxi at a consistent speed - safe speed. I, for one, and all for letting folks get ahead of me. Paid by the minute, folks...
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Originally Posted by reelbigchair
(Post 460823)
Well I'm not saying it's everybody, but I think "not that uncommon" would be fair terminology. And also, I've never seen it from the 75/76 or anything other than md-80. It just seems to me that they go at an abnormaly slow rate when compared to everyone else.
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Originally Posted by aa73
(Post 460867)
I don't disagree with you over the slower than usual taxi speeds. I just think that the one you saw that was speeding up to get in front of someone, then resuming a slow pace, was an isolated incident. Maybe they had a sequence? Who knows. As far as it being the MD80s, the only thing I can think of is single-engine taxiing. It takes a while for those old Pratts to spool up and get the momentum going. We don't really do single engine taxi on any other a/c except maybe the 737... and lately nobody is even doing SE taxiing anymore due to safety and avoiding situations where random CPs turn us in for not moving fast enough.
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