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Guess CAL & UAL are already in bed together

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Guess CAL & UAL are already in bed together

Old 09-16-2008, 07:47 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
I told you I have heard nothing about a national list. Have you? other than some forum rumor? I see our rates. They suck. But years at good wages + a nice pension settlement check have kept me afloat. I am just glad I left the regional ranks 13 years ago. At least I can pay the bills on ****ty legacy wages.
Here you go Spanky:

AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING
September 9-10, 2008


SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
See proposed resolution.

PROPOSED RESOLUTION
WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and

WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and,

WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and

WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and

WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and

WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:51 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
I told you I have heard nothing about a national list. Have you? other than some forum rumor? I see our rates. They suck. But years at good wages + a nice pension settlement check have kept me afloat. I am just glad I left the regional ranks 13 years ago. At least I can pay the bills on ****ty legacy wages.
I hope you get the nice wages back, I hope you guys get to be the great airline that you once were, and I'm glad that for the most part things have worked out for you.

Again the point is, your present managemet have taken all those things away and put the company in a bad position, as direct result you guys could be facing even more furloughs...is it fair to begin a domino mass displacement because managements mistakes?
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:54 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
So flying shiny new 70 seat jets at the direct expense of 1000's of furloughs is not payment enough? We are talking about right seat jobs at the bottom of the list. It was a contractual condition of giving up 70 seat scope.
At the bottom of the list, then yes, they had nothing to whine about. I really think Longevity is the solution, nobody is willing to give up their seat and nobody will have to.
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:55 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Bond View Post
Here you go Spanky:

AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING
September 9-10, 2008


SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
See proposed resolution.

PROPOSED RESOLUTION
WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and

WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and,

WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and

WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and

WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and

WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.
Thanks Spanky. First I have seen/heard of it. Just curious, if the national number were for logevity and not seniority like Blastoff mentioned, would you be for it. IOW, if a pilot with 15 years at Eastern came to XJT, would you approve of him making 15 year F/O pay at the bottom of your list?
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Old 09-16-2008, 07:59 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Bond View Post
I hope you get the nice wages back, I hope you guys get to be the great airline that you once were, and I'm glad that for the most part things have worked out for you.

Again the point is, your present managemet have taken all those things away and put the company in a bad position, as direct result you guys could be facing even more furloughs...is it fair to begin a domino mass displacement because managements mistakes?
No, it sucks. I am currently on my 3rd bumped position (on paper at least). I am playing games with the bumps and sitting on my arse while it all filters though. What a waste.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:03 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
Thanks Spanky. First I have seen/heard of it. Just curious, if the national number were for logevity and not seniority like Blastoff mentioned, would you be for it. IOW, if a pilot with 15 years at Eastern came to XJT, would you approve of him making 15 year F/O pay at the bottom of your list?
Sure, as long as the same applies across the board and it's based on whether or not there is a spot available at the bottom of that list.

Let's take it a step forward, IMHO, this would only work in a regulated environment. In our current competitive environment, where most management teams everywhere will continue to try to squeeze every penny out of their employees, it would work against us, and could open the door to alter egos (see gojets) and cabotage.

Last edited by Bond; 09-16-2008 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:18 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
No, it sucks. I am currently on my 3rd bumped position (on paper at least). I am playing games with the bumps and sitting on my arse while it all filters though. What a waste.
I'm really sorry to hear that. This is part of the reason for my disdain with the folks running this industry. No one should have to go through what you guys have been through.

We need fuel reform in the form of tax relief for the airlines. We should also get caps on executive compensation. More labor friendly laws, preventing management from exploiting labor by means of work rules and pay cuts. To tell you the truth a little route structure and control would not hurt either....if we can attack all these problems, seniority will work itself out.
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Old 09-16-2008, 08:19 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Bond View Post
I'm really sorry to hear that. This is part of the reason for my disdain with the folks running this industry. No one should have to go through what you guys have been through.

We need fuel reform in the form of tax relief for the airlines. We should also get caps on executive compensation. More labor friendly laws, preventing management from exploiting labor by means of work rules and pay cuts. To tell you the truth a little route structure and control would not hurt either....if we can attack all these problems, seniority will work itself out.
You have my vote.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:51 PM
  #39  
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I will give you two quotes from the presidential candidates convention speeches:


"Now is the time to change our bankruptcy laws, so that your pensions are protected ahead of CEO bonuses."


"I fought tobacco companies and trial lawyers, drug companies and union bosses."


Obviously, one of them is pro-labor and one of them is anti-labor. I would tell which one said which, but I bet you already know.

I don't even want to get into what one of them said 8 years ago about airline pilot "greed and role in exacerbating gridlock in U.S. skies."
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:19 AM
  #40  
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A politician is a politician. I won't get into a political argument here, but I'll vote for McCain over Obama for a hundred different reasons. No, I don't like McCain, but look at my choices.
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