Your Words !!
 

In case you hadn't noticed I am not alone in my opinions. I suppose you guys would prefer to hear yourselves complement each others glories. Sorry.

I am here to enjoy a diversion and to pass on my opinions to others. Until recently this place was full of stuffed shirt airline captain egotists. Someone needed to be the contrarian.

SKyHigh

Amen to that!!!!!!

Opinions
 

These are just my opinions and not the words of God. If you can't exchange in intelligent debates then perhaps you should get out of the kitchen. I am not alone in my ideas. If you came here just to hear yourself talk then perhaps you should go back to the crew lounge. Seems like I have hit a nerve. Perhaps you would be happier putting your head back in the sand?

SKyHigh

Take the plate
 

Someone take the plate and please educate us all on how a legacy carrier is supposed to operate the same routes with the same equipment as a LCC and expect to get twice the pay for doing it? Pilots are on thing but it doesnt stop there. It is easy to forget about the FA's, cleaners, baggage handlers and mechanics. Just how is that imbalance supposed to continue? We are all here to learn something.

SkyHigh

I guess someone forgot to tell Bloomingdales to fold up their tent, since they have higher costs (and quality) than WalMart. They deliver a product that a good portion of the public is willing to pay for.

It isn't always simply about low cost.

Are you sure?
 

What ever you say chief, however I don't think that argument even comes close to holding water.

SkyHigh

It's been that way for years Sonny. Look at J-Blew. The are retreating with their tails between their legs and cancelling trans-cons, cutting back on orders, NYC-FLA market is retrenching ect... These "start-ups" shine for several years than start suffering the very same pains we do.

Nothing new here except for defending the trade. When times are good again what carrier will you want to work for? The Jet Blews or the Legacy's?

With Sky as opposed to a lot of us there are two different world views, I remember when the sky was falling last time(early 90's,and no pun intended),there were a lot of Sky's around then predicting the doom of the industry , Sky is entitled to his opinion, this is an open forum, but he is not the Cassandra he thinks he is. Anyway, what do I know, I flew DC-3s,non-sched on demand for 10 years and loved it,I'm probably way to biased, I just love this profession,despite the present environment, and unlike a few on this forum,I do see a brighter tomorrow,for all of us, Cheers,and goodnight!

Let me add however I am a staunch ALPA member,and a firm believer in the collective bargaining process.

I do. To be so simple minded as to think the whole world economy revolves around low cost (and yes your retorts sound as if you advocate low cost across the board) is, well, lets just say its good your now Mr. passive income.....MLM anyone?

Which one ??
 

As far as the clearing smoke goes, even if Delta NWA and UAL survive in the short term I think most would agree that it will be sometime before they are in a position to hire anyone. I know that you guys love to cling to the past but things do change. Sure start ups suffer growing pains, but a few are still here and are growing; Airtran, Frontier, Jetblue ect. And a few of the Legacy carriers have transformed into close to LCC themselves. So if given the opportunity to be stuck in the right seat for an eternity at a stagnant old legacy or join a progressive new company that offers a much quicker upgrade in a brand new plane, No contest.

SkyHigh

Joe
 

Really, an airlines mission is to get the customer safely from point A to B and hopefully with their luggage. Most of the newer airlines comprise the top of the Conde Nast Traveller list of best airlines. So, if a legacy carrier doesnt offer better service or a cheaper ticket then where do they shine? It certainly isn't with nice friendly FA's. The few who do care about that level of quality are buying into Netjets.



SkyHigh

The legacy carriers offer a variety of destinations that LCC carriers don't come close to touching. Network carriers are not dead, they have been beaten down by a variety of events the past 5 years, including poor management decisions. Look at Europe. In spite of a rise in LCCs the major European carriers are making profits. The network carriers in the US have not learned how to capture the yield they need to make money. I'm not sure that management really wants to make money right now. It's a great opportunity for all mangements industry wide to bring down those arrogant, pesky pilots. Why else would these guys throw more capacity into the system to chase market share? Now that they are faced with the need to actually show a court that they have a viable business plan you now see fleets reduced in size until they can raise fares.

The RJ is the biggest waste of dollars that was ever put in the air. Sarcasti, you have pinned your career to the chance to fly a high cost jet in a low fare business. What happened at Fly i is what will happen at Comair or any other CRJ or EMB 145 operator. You will lose jets and routes because your jets cost too much to fly for the fares the network carrier is getting.

And why do you regional guys think your airlines are managed so much better than the network carriers you denigrate? It doesn't take a genius to make money on a cost plus basis, which is what fee for departure is. Mesa has taken a huge amount of money out of America West over the years because of fee for departure. We pay for the crappy service Mesa gives and they are guaranteed a profit on each segment they fly. It is subsidised service, a service that has been paid for in the past from mainline revenues, a service to expand the reach of the network, to provide a passenger with a greater range of choices and reasons to fly that particular carrier.

Now with the squeeze on cash at the network carriers each part of the company has to make financial sense in order to remain a part of the whole. The regional feed is making less and less sense at these fare levels so you will see more Rjs go bye bye unless fares come back up.

So the question then becomes why should a pilot group lock themselves into a long term concessionary contract which would prevent them from sharing in any future gains? Pilot groups have always stepped up to help out in the past, with the expectation that their sacrifices would be rewarded in the end. For the first time we are seeing management asking for concessions with no payback in better times. That is unacceptable and should be a line in the sand. I applaud Delta pilots for standing up and preventing the rape of their company.

What Legacy PAX carrier pays it's Pilots or FA's twice the pay of SWA or even JB or Airtran on comparable aircraft?

OK Son

You shot your mouth off,,,,,,,,,,,,,,here is some education
These pay rates were just taken from this forum

I used MAX longevity 12-16 years on comparable aircraft 737,A320, MD80, B717

Airline Aircraft CAPT/hr FO/hr
Airtran 737/717 153 79
JET B 320 139 76
CAL 737 144 98
Frontier 320 157 94UAL 320/737 129 88
DAL (currently) 737/md80 134 92
SWA 737 190 126
NWA 320 137 93
USAIr 320/737 125 95

According to you ALL the big boys are paying twice what the LCC's are paying. Before you make idiotic statements at least get your facts.

According to your thinking SWA will be out of business next week.
How is it Frontier can pay their crews more than DAL, USAIR UAL.

The legaciy carriers have HI Yield international markets vast international code share alliances to 140 or more countries world wide.
With globalization people will need to travel abroad all connecting many domestic US cities............................................ .........

My money is on the Big boys...........with a few exceptions they have always prevailed..............Other than SW and Americawest (Now mergerd into USAIR).......and name a start up that is still in business for more than 15 years? There numbers of the failed LCC start ups are too numerous to mention.............................

He is long on wind,but short on substance,and this isn't flame bait,just fact, I hope he comes around.

DAL Union Chief can call for walkout after April 17
 

Pilots finalize strike stance
Union chief can call for walkout after April 17
By RUSSELL GRANTHAM, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 04/06/06

The leader of Delta Air Lines' pilots union can call a strike anytime after April 17, the union's executive council decided Wednesday.

During a meeting of Air Line Pilots Association officials in Washington, council members granted Chairman Lee Moak authority to call a strike after that date and "and in a manner determined at his sole discretion," according to a message to all pilots.

The council's move was the last procedural step needed to allow Moak to call a strike, but it does not mean a walkout will happen.

Talks toward a settlement of the contract dispute continue, and a Delta spokesman said the airline remains committed to getting a deal.

Moak had said Tuesday that a walkout could begin immediately if an arbitration panel rules the airline can impose more than $300 million in annual concessions it says are critical to its Chapter 11 restructuring bid. The union is offering a smaller package, and the two sides submitted the matter to the panel last month.

The panel, which has urged the sides to work out a deal rather than wait for its ruling, is due to issue a decision by April 15. By making April 18 the first possible strike day, the union council might be adding a last-ditch negotiating buffer. Delta contends a strike would be illegal, and it might try to block one in court.

Earlier this week, the union said rank-and-file pilots voted overwhelmingly to give leaders strike authority — a common union move to gain leverage and pressure the company.

Wow,

We hit some turbulence with this thread.

To all the RJ drivers out there trying to make a living, my apologies if it appeared that I was dismissive of your contributions. That was not my intention. I would rather see your working conditions and pay go up and not down.

To all the aviators out there who have shown us your support, my heartfelt gratitude. Yes, it is our time at the forefront. We are resolved and we are prepared. Nothing worth having is free. I, along with many of my fellow pilots, was willing to fight for my country. I am willing to fight for my (our) profession.

Fairwinds.

Remlap

Well, if you count when it started (under a different name, same founder) Spirit Airlines was founded in 1980 as "Charter One".
If you don't count that, May 29th this year we will be close, 14 years as "Spirit Airlines".
And according to our D.O. next few years will be years of "growth" with new aircraft and destinations.?
Also, how long has ATA been around? It has been awhile hasn't it?

Pay Rates
 

I agree that the current pay scales are much less than my statements about "twice the pay". However we all know that in the minds of the legacy guys they are all expecting to go back to the pay and benefits that they enjoyed five years ago someday. I don't think that will happen. Other statements that I made mentioned that a few of the legacy carriers were "beginning to resemble the LCC's". Therefore I think I appropriately addressed the current situation in previous postings. My position is that management at Delta is trying to make the pay cuts stick for the long haul and to get a little bit more if they can, like do away with the retirement plan.

As far as RJ's go. I am sure that they all would dry up and blow away if pilots at the bigger carriers would start to fly MD80's and 737's at RJ pilot wages. Scope clauses and pay traditions have drawn a line in the sand in regards to pay scales of airframe types. NWA is attempting to do away with that superstition and get their pilots to fly the 100 seat RJ at prevailing RJ wages. Next I think is that they will try and move a bigger jet like an MD80 into Newco and so on. Before long the RJ's will all be gone to South America and NWA pilots will be operating the same routes with MD80s at RJ wages and so will everyone else.

Some here feel that I am attacking aviation and I am not really. There will always be airplanes to fly and pilots willing to fly them. The change will be that pilots are not going to he as highly paid as in past generations. In the near future I think that prevailing wages for a domestic jet captain will be near 90K. International rates will be a bit higher. Employee funded health care and 401K but no generous retirement programs.


SkyHigh

Options
 

CactusMike is right. Legacy carriers offer a greater network of destinations than smaller LCCs. That fact gives them a chance at the future but they still need to match the costs of LCC's before they close the gap.

SkyHigh

I think what we really need to be looking at is what labor costs per CASM at each airline. If the pilots and other labor at legacy carriers are paid less than Southwest, yet the labor portion of the CASM is higher, what does that tell us? Maybe there are to many high paid chiefs and not enough indians.

Paid Less
 

What if they are not paid less? What if SWA just works themselves into the ramp. Do you think then that legacy pilots should take a bigger pay cut or work more? In addition, if SWA is becoming the gold standard what if they face a pay cut someday, they are not bullet proof. What then? Soon they will be the top of the mountain of pay and benefits and no management staff wishes that title.

SkyHigh

Too many "what ifs"
 

We all need to see the future for what it is. What have we learned from the past? Every ten years, the industry takes a dump. This time around, the dump seems to last a little bit longer. Unfortunatley, the airlines will have to think outside the box to get the ball rolling again. Pilot pay and fuel are the biggest costs, but a pilot should not have to give something up unless upper management is willing to do so themselves.

Management
 

And why is that? Pilots and management are not the same category. What relevance does their respective pay scales have to each other? Management survives on their perceived business ability and pilots preform a simple skill. Its like comparing a union carpenter to the team that manages the project. Not even close to the same skills set and job requirements.

So far this "dump" has lasted 5 years already and shows little signs of abating any time soon.

SKyHigh

Why don't you look then before you make ridiculous quotes on this forum..............What is it with you. :rolleyes:

I did, smarta**, but their financial reports don't break it down into labor CASM. But if you were to look at total costs excluding fuel, you would see that Delta is still about 2 cents per seat mile more than Southwest. What is it with YOU?:confused:

If you re-read Mr Doom and Gloom's (SKYHIGH's ) original POST he made the statement that Legacy carriers are paying Pilots Twice what the LCC's are.................. He love to shoot from the Hip. When faed with a facutal reply he changes the subject.

I simply proved him wrong..........Don't you start

I agree with you. It's obvious that the legacy carriers ARE NOT paying twice what the LCC's are. In fact, many are paying less, even for larger equip. So why are their CASM's higher, excluding fuel, than Southwest's? I THINK it is because they have to many non-operational employees driving the labor costs per mile up.

They have higher costs for several reasons.....................

Most Legacy Carriers have their hubs in Large Metro Markets...............
LAX, SFO, ORD, ATL, DFW JFK on the domestic side coupled with the higher costs of LABOR and Realestate in International cities. The legacies generally have larger #'s of Gates and a Larger # of Landing fees respectively. JB has their Hub in JFK but I believe (don't quote me) their were given a very lucrative lease deal for Gate space there..........
However with the Bankruptcies, the legacies are renogotiating their gate leases and other costs at their main hubs.

Legacies have higher CASM's because they operate several different types of aircraft, which cause additional training and Mainteneace costs.................
Even that is changing, The legacies are beginning align their Fleets to limit the different types to only a few....................Continental is a good example. They are a Boeing Fleet, 737, 757,777.........They parked their DC9's, DC-10s and 727's and I believe most if not all their MD-80s.
American is slowly replacing the MD-80's with 737NG. American parked their DC-10s, MD-11 and is finishing up with their A-300's. Same with NWA losing their DC-9s and Dc-10s.

The Old USAir, for example, at one time had 11 different aircraft. Very inefficient.
Airbus has helped them with the 319, 320, 321..........different size aircraft for different markets yet they are the same "TYPE Rating" for pilots and the same for Maintenance. They Still have A-330's, 767's 757's 737's and the 319-321 with the A350 on order.

American is slowly replacing the MD-80's with 737NG. American parked their DC-10s, MD-11 and is finishing up with their A-300's.

Legacies have higher costs because they offer additional products.............
First and Business classes for the in Demand Business traveler. They have Business lounge facilities.

The funny thing is when you break down the cost by specific Aircraft (which they genrally don't do) instead including all fleet types the legacies are pretty close to the LCC's when you compare A-320s for example.

It has been said before...........Once this Delta battle is over, watch and see what happens. The BIG boys will be on PAR if not slightly less than many LCC's. The water level will stablize and things will get better. (barring another international catastophe or major Oil shock)

Agreed. But these are all decisions that management has made that are driving up their CASM's. Pilots, or any employee for that matter, shouldn't be expected to lower their wages any lower than that of the closest PROFITABLE competitor.

That is precisely the Point the many of the Professional aviators on this Forum, including myself, have been making. ...........:eek:

Well good, we agree. I'm glad that all of us "Professional aviators" agree.

What do these two airlines have in common? No passengers. Same a DAL soon.

Strike
 

I heard it was supposed to start on May 14th. What time is your flight?
Just kiddin...:p

I have a contract you moron. I'm not going to quit. I'm going to uphold my legal right to work under a negotiated agreement that's been in place for 65 years. You have a lot to learn my juvenile sarcastic-spastic fellow flier.

You can thank me later.

Good post CAL, Skyhigh drop dead. If history tells us anything the industry will turn around and I applaud the Delta guys for their willingness to stop the MADNESS!

A Delta strike will mean instant (job) suicide for the pilots and instant (job) murder for the other 41,000 Delta employees the pilots will take down with them. A real pity. And hardly democratic for the 41,000 employees who don't have a say in whether the pilots strike.

What the Delta pilots have to understand is that, as outrageous as the loss of their pensions and the steep cuts in salary may be, this is The Future for commercial aviation. I wish it weren't so, but the demand for cheap tickets by the American flying public continues to ravage the cost structure of the legacy airlines. Anyone planning (or currently trapped in) a professional flying career with the airlines needs to get a grip and accept that a probable salary ceiling will be about 100K for experienced captains. Again, I wish it wasn't so, but that's the writing on the wall. At least you can have a very decent standard of living for 100K, and can raise a family. Definitely won't get rich, though.

Madness?? History ??
 

History changes my friend. Nothing goes on forever. There will always be a need for pilots but not at 300K and 17 days off a month. If the Delta guys strike and the company goes under then you might as well start saving now because the industry will be turning its guns on even Airtran for a paycut.

SKyHigh

Management will continue "going to the well" as long as there's water to be had.

Right now, going after those "over-paid" pilots is a path of minimum resistance for management and they will continue to take that course of action, and why not, it's been successful! 9/11 and it's aftermath gave management some "tools" they never had. :mad:

Personally, I don't think the attack on pilot wages is over, by a long shot. :eek:

When and if the airline pilots of the US stand together and punch the greedy managements back in their collective noses, things will change.

However, there must be an awakening of the pilot group for this to ever occur, and that is their biggest challenge.

JMHO.