Captain's Authority
 

Maybe it's just me but I find the court's decision in the case of the four defendants in the United Air Lines vs. ALPA to be very disturbing.

One doesn't have to have an advanced degree in Business or a law degree to realize that "Captain's authority" is under a full scale attack and the federal court is now in a position to second guess a Captain on decisions that he/she may make. What if you shoot an approach to minimums and end up missing the approach and diverting to your alternate. If the aircraft in front of you and the trailing aircraft end up landing successfully, then your actions could be construed by the court to have been designed to have an economic impact on the company even though the weather, when you got to DH (or MDA), was such that a safe landing could not have been made. It's not a stretch to see the Captain being brought into court to defend his/her actions as a violation of the court order and if you think UAL won't do it, you're living in a dream world. Is the court going to decide what braking action is acceptable or what tower prevailing visibility is required ?

In their e-mail to all United pilots, the defendants stated," As a result of the Court's order, all United pilots are at risk from any delays or cancellations related to pilots. We cannot take any economic action against the company in response to the court's decision,..." Please think about that phase Ladies & Gentlemen.

United and other carriers have gutted our pensions, our schedules, taken benefits and what ever else they can. The only thing they have not taken is the authority to operate their aircraft and make decisions about how that aircraft is operated. Well, here comes that battle and it will reach everyone on this forum at some point in time and some fashion. Look at the battle U.S. Airways pilots have had over fuel loading, and how has your company handled scheduling practices of late. We are under attack and we better stand together or we will certainly loose the battle.

I don't have all the answers and there are some really bright minds on this forum but action by everyone is needed if this once proud profession is going to survive.

On a brighter note, we still have a lot to be thankful for and to everyone who is still in a cockpit seat on any aircraft no matter what or where you fly, thanks for trying to keep the piloting profession an honourable and proud one.

Happy Thanksgiving to all !!

G'Day Mates and eat wisely....aw hell, just enjoy !!:)

Captains authority. Come to UPS and you will see the total lack of Captains authority, none , nada, zip

Really? A month or so ago a captain bumped 3 mx supervisors in ONT. I have no idea what that was all about but how did he bump those sups if he has no captain authority?

Are you saying that all your decisions are being challenged by the company or that you simply are not allowed to make any decisions on your own?
Confused... :confused:

This shouldn't be scary folks. I've used my authority hundreds of times. I was always prepared with the facts to back up my decision during the inevitable rug dance with the chief pilot du juor. Sometimes they got angry, but the facts always speak for themselves.

If you don't use your authority as you see fit, the ensuing error could cost you your license. Which would you rather lose, your job or your license?

Captain's authority can NEVER be taken away, it can only be GIVEN away.

Carl

Carl,

Very well put. Keeping that in mind helps prevent me from constantly second guessing my career decision with so many issues that we face. I love to fly and I don't know if I could be happy doing anything else, however, I often wonder if I should have gone to med school or law school.

Standing Tall
 

I would agree Carl; however, let's say that the authority the Captain has under the FAR's is being "threatened" by the likes of Mr. Tilton et al. If we,as a group, don't stand tall and say "Hell No", you're not taking our authority to operate the aircraft in a safe, professional manner while making decisions we feel are appropriate under the circumstances, then we've lost the battle.

The situation at United is unique and that prompted the thread. I'm just concerned that the pressures to reduce the authority the Captain has will spread across the board in time....if not checked. :eek:

I hope I'm wrong.

G'Day Mates

There's a corollary to that. If we as a group don't stand tall and say "Hell No, you're not acting contrary to the law and in an unprofessional manner" then we will continue to get what we deserve in third party rulings.

There is ZERO diminishment of Captain's authority in the UAL vs. ALPA court ruling.

APA limited the labor flexibility of all pilots with their actions after Judge Kendall's ruling. A certain number of United pilots have gotten our whole association crossways with the law again, and put us all at risk. Maybe if our profession did a better job of policing itself, and not trying to hide industrial action behind the mantle of "authority", we wouldn't see our Union being held accountable for those types of actions.:mad:

It's our responsibility to follow the prudent path.

Gee, I think I've read those three italicized words before....seems like some don't like that "accountability" word.:rolleyes:

It's always being threatened by some management geek. They can threaten all they want, but if they're not in the left seat - they have no say. If you have the facts to backup your decision, any court attempt to sanction you will fail. If a pilot doesn't have any facts on his side, then he/she doesn't have the temperament to be in the left seat yet.

I don't mean to sound like such a hard ass here, but the FAR's do not delineate "we" and "our" in the description of the authority granted to the Pilot In Command. It is a singular granting of authority to one person and one person only. Federal law is completely on your side when you act as a prudent commander who is only intersted in safety.

I know it feels unique to you right now, but it's not. Don't worry about the collective in this regard. Worry only about what YOU think is correct and safe - then act accordingly. That's all you need to know.

Carl

Well said Carl.

People... at the end of the day if management wants to manage an errant captain off the property... they will... even as the Union turns their head as one of their own is sacrificed... or for a lack of a better term... whacked... nothing personal... it just business.

Remember captains both current and future... regardless of what the courts decide or the view or management... the one who had the keys to the jet is the one who is responsible for the safety of carriage of passengers, crew, passengers and cargo.

And if an accident that arises out of the necessity by the captain to be a company man to complete the mission??? well you all figure it out how the skipper will be regarded when he/she has their day in court by both management and his representatives.

Bumping people is not using Captains authority.

The fact that every decision made by a Captain that doesn't please the van drivers promoted to contingency in hooterville is questioned. That they presume that they have the authority to pass judgement on the decisions is the problem. We have dispatchers who think they have sole authority over the flights from fuel loads to alternates, without input from the Captains or crews is the problem. The second guessing of the deicing of aircraft by some ACP sitting in and aircraft on the other side of the airport is the problem.
The decisions that need to be made are made.

We had... trying their luck elsewhere now.

I Agree, we Disagree
 

Carl:

As to your first point, just look what happened when Glen Tilton was delayed because of a late arriving crew and a mechanical issue for his flight to Chicago a couple of weeks ago. As CEO, he decided that the Captain was not going to delay him and the inference was that it was "politically" motivated because of Tilton's position. As a result the Captain was removed from flight status, initially without pay, and placed on administrative leave. In this case, the Captain appears to have been correct and followed company SOP and the FAR's. The jury is still out (figuratively) and it will be interesting to see what happens.

I'm well aware of "Captain's Authority" as defined by the FAR's having been "up the chain of command" all the way to the FAA Administrators office as part of a group in my previous life. You're correct in that with the law on your side and flying by company SOP's and the FAR's there isn't a concern...or shouldn't be. In most cases, this isn't an issue but the recent pressure being exerted on crew members is troublesome.

After having been one of the thousands of victims of the errosion of our lifestyle, it seems that senior management will press on to reduce the role of flight crewmwmbers in every aspect of operations, including Captain's Authority.

With all due respect, I guess we agree to disagree on the potential effect that the UAL va ALPA decision will have. As I said in the first posting, I hope that I'm wrong.

As for me personally, I have no fears Mate. I'm out of that mess.:)

Lack of 121 Captain Experience or Lack of Authority.

It has been my observation, that no dispatcher has come across with sole authority over any flight I've ever flown.

Basically, in any 121 flight, it is a handshake agreement to have a flight released. Part 121 ops are not military ops whereas the aircraft commander dictates what goes on and Base ops says yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir.

A dispatcher is bound by the FARs to give input into all flights he/she releases. If a Capt elects not to work with the dispatcher pro-actively, but chooses to pick up the phone and yell at the dispatcher after the release is made then IMHO it's shows a lack of experience in how the process works.

Also, IMHO, one of the adverse affects of deregulation has been the erosion of Captain's authority. Economic forces have been given more weight and safety factors, although still important; have been trimmed to a bare minimun in order to make the operation as efficient as possible. In turn, this has stripped the Capt's absolute authority down to something that can be best described as a CYA process, or an attempt to avoid being the scapegoat. Case in point, at the last 4 passenger airlines I've worked at the gate agent owns the airplane while parked at the gate, because the gate agent can make economic deccisions such as detriminations on letting passengers get on, re-booking them, moving them up to first class etc. My argument is, if the gate agent owns the airplane while at the gate, when the HAZMAT in the front belly catches fire, I'm going to get myself off the airplane and the gate agent can direct the evacuation.

However, with experience of how the FARs are written, company policy, and diplomacy I've witnessed Capts. finesse the system to operate the flight the way they want it. Re-phrased, Capt's absolute authority allows a Capt to operate a flight the way they want to. Finessing the system by knowing (experience) how the system works allows for the same outcome.

Boiled down to one sentence...having experience of who all the players are, what their roles are, and what the rules are allows a Capt just as much opportunity for authority as the proverbial yeller or screamer.

FF

I'm not sure if I am reading the article correctly, but if I am and the defendant is United ALPA, I think their position is the problem. Because the Captains authority comes from the FAR's & FOM's in conjunction with the Federal Government thru the FAA. Support from the company and the Union are just nice things to have. If you get fired for exercising your legal right that opens up a lot of other possibilities. But back to the union.

If this is their quote....


.... then THEY are the ones that have the wrong attitude. THEY are the ones that are supposed to have our backs no matter what the company or some judge says. ESPECIALLY if it is safety related.

I'll leave it at that for now because I'm not sure if it is UAL's ALPA that is issuing that statement. Can anyone confirm where the statemet came from and what the broad implication of the e-mail message was?

New K Now (For United Pilots)

Nope, still got them at UPS.

My experience differs to the extreme from yours and since I have been a Captain at UPS for a very long time I will retain my very accurate view of the companies attitude toward its Captains. I suggest once you move to a seat with accountability to the company on a daily basis that you to will understand the continuous attack on Captains authority.

Source Data
 

The quote is verbatim from an e-note that was authored by the four defendants in the lawsuit and was sent to all United pilots. If you would like references, pls send a PM and I'll be glad to provide all of the source data.

To 757upspilot; I think you understand the issue very clearly and thanks for your posts. We've been under attack for some time and perhaps this is the last bastion. At least you know who the enemy is.

G'Day Mates....and watch your six !:rolleyes:

Thanks Phantom,

But, if it's just a letter from the four defendant I'm ok. I thought it was the union cutting the pilots loose. My mistake. :)

Hear hear!

When I was Captain, I made decisions that were unpopular back at the home office. Shoot, I was so unpopular with MX control (because I wouldn't fly broken planes) that one mechanic on the plane even said, "hey, you're not as bad as MX control said!" .

However, I never once was questioned or called into the office. Why? Because I had listened to the situation, researched the problem using the manuals we have carry (MEL, FOM, Aircraft manual) and made an educated decision.

"Exercising Captain's Authority" is about being rational and making what might be an unpopular decision, but is the correct one.

Nice remarks that further enforce my position. Your tone is probably the same way you talk to dispatchers, schedulers, and First Officers and then you wonder why no one wants to work with you.

As a First Officer, I am just as accountable to the company and FAA for my performance, as is the dispatcher, as are you. I think you revealed what the problem is...you maintain that the only person that has input is yourself and thus others aren't worth listening to. I think if you re-read my posting, you'll see that Capt's who have experience know there is a way to finesse the system with better results, as opposed to the yellers and screamers.

As you contend, you have "an accurate view of how the company treats it's Capt's". Please tell me that you aren't one of the few Capt's that think's out of 427,000 employees that the company knows you and is out to get you personally. Usually those Capt's with this perspective are those that are bent at "sticking it to the man", which usually backfires and cost him and his crew pay, missing their jumpseats home or leads to other adverse affects to his crew. That doesn't show experience, that shows selfishness and unprofessionalism.

Finally, as a former 757 passenger Capt and an 747 ACMI Capt flying Worldwide with ZERO support, you can spare me the lecture. The only reason you are the one in a "seat with accountability to the company" is because you were hired before me, not necessarily based on your experience vis-a-vis mine and certaintly not because of your attitude.

With the support that UPS provides to us, this is a cake walk compared to flying for the passenger airlines or ACMIs. You can trumpet your horn about how much experience you have and how no one, but you knows how to be a Capt, but remember the FAA suggested to UPS to hire applicants like myself et. al., into the widebodies flying Int'l out of ANC for a reason.

FF

Actually I work very well with the dispatchers who acknowledge joint authority, I rarely speak with schedulers because its not necessary, I routinely fly with the same FO's who could bid to fly with someone else if they made the choice to ( By the way these guys passed on the job you got because they didn't want it not because they couldn't do it).
Having to finesse the system is the problem , the Captain shouldn't have to do this. I have never yelled at anyone.
Actually, before UPS I flew worldwide with very little to no support and did just fine.
There are lots of Captains here who do a great job and did so before you where hired as a First Officer.
You where hired as a First Officer because the FAA didn't want UPS putting a bunch of new hires from the regionals in the cockpit , the IPA agreed and the UPS took the course of least resistance.
UPS had pilots flying world wide before you came along , we know how to do it. You got the job in ANC because no one else on the property really wanted it although we had more than enough that could do the job.
Don't pat yourself on the back.

Not entirely true, even new hires that lived in ANC were not allowed to bid ANC based on background. Put another way, the company was willing to give new hires move packages to move to ANC and tell someone that lived there he was assigned to Louisville. Doesn't seem like the path of least resistance to me.

THE FAA POI did advise UPS to hire experienced pilots with overwater time (if you look at the application it is in print) because they gave UPS a choice, hire experience or open yourself up to increased ramp and line checks based on the fact that it was the junior upgrade base. I'm just the messenger, but I guess your opinion contradicts the FAA's advice to UPS.

Why would UPS hire "just regional pilots", when they have over 10,000 applicants from all walks of aviation. I know you really don't believe that either.

If you really work "very well" with our dispatchers, then stop ragging on them. If you can provide a factual instance of any dispatcher saying he/she was the sole authority over a flight you operate(d), please do so. Maybe the Flt Number, initials, anything to prove your claim.

Our dispatchers actually do a very solid job here.

The only pat on the back, I'll take is working at UPS. After working at 6 other airlines, arguably this is one of the easiest and better companies to work for. I'm sorry you feel that dispatchers and the company are out to get you. It's just my opinion, that I've never witnessed it here and from my dealings with Capts/Dispatchers I find it a little far-fetched that a dispatcher would say he is the sole authority of a flight, and I've decided to call you on it.

FF

Your first paragraph. This occurred after it became apparent that very few of the current and qualified Captains or FO's on the MD-11 where going to bid the new ANC domicile. The move packages where negotiated by the IPA, along with the extra pay you got.
Its in print on the application , again after it became apparent that very few where going to bid it. If the domicile had stayed in SDF not a problem, the airplanes had been flying international for a long time.

I believe that UPS would have hired pilots from the regionals for those positions.

You can call anything you want. First how about a name, like yours.

757pilot - I think Flifast had some good points (and so did you in your earlier posts) however you sort of erected an 'invisible barrier' in the cockpit with this reply:

"...My experience differs to the extreme from yours and since I have been a Captain at UPS for a very long time I will retain my very accurate view of the companies attitude toward its Captains. I suggest once you move to a seat with accountability to the company on a daily basis that you to will understand the continuous attack on Captains authority..."

When I was in new hire training I ran into a former USairways captain who was being trained on the panel. He had been an international captain at USair for 20+ years and resigned from his old company as opposed to being furloughed. My point is that many FOs here at UPS have tons of captain experience from previous airlines (I'm not implying that I am one of them).

It would be better if you could be specific in your criticism of UPS dispatchers and our procedures rather than emphasizing your rank. Your observations are probably very accurate and if so we could all learn from those who'd been there before...

Just my 1/4 ¢

I question his experience with UPS, which is obviously limited to his time in ANC, not his overall experience. The only thing that rank has to do with it is who gets the phone call, who has the data entered into their file, etc. When he moves to the Captains seat he will discover exactly what I am writing about. My long experience with UPS as a Captain gives me a much better perspective and depth of experience in the way that UPS manages the flight crews the pressure they put on evryone from the gateway personel to the Dispatchers ( one reason the Dispatchers unionized, did you know they used to be considered management?) and most importantly what they tell the managers about who has the final authority over the airplane and flight.

Well said. There are some of us who misuse their authority, and sometimes the rest of us pay for it.

757,

We can agree to disagree all day until the wings fall off this. All I asked was do you a specific example of a dispatcher that told you they are the sole authority of one of your flights. Your lack of specifics shows that your posting was rhetorical, rather than factual.

You may think that I will have this great religious event when and if I ever upgrade at UPS. No offense, but I doubt it seriously. After flying as a former 747 Capt and 757 Capt (just like you), the only thing that will change will be which rest break and paycheck I get. After 6 airlines prior to this, this is the easiest place to work, with the most support. How many airlines have you worked at before here, please don't tell me, this is your first.

Do you really think at UPS they pressure you as a Capt to fly broken airplanes like they do at some of the scum bag outfits that don't have any money to fix them. At least UPS has the money to maintain their stuff. You said you flew worldwide, was that with a scum bag outfit like the last two that I was Capt at.

Maybe this was the case in 1988, when I presume you were hired, but I haven't witnessed it in the time I've spent here. And really, if you have all this experience with UPS, how do you know what it's like to work at American, Delta, United, TWA, USAir. After working at American/TWA and the regional for USAir, I can tell you examples of Capt's being fired for not taking broken planes and for not violating FARs and the contract. Our MEC Chariman was one of them at Allegheny.

You can question my experience until doomesday, its all listed in my APC profile, type ratings, planes, etc. However, it still doesn't support your paranoid claim that UPS dispatchers, gateway individuals, ACPs are out to get you or that they are the sole authority over your flight. I have never witnessed this at UPS. I've actually witnessed quite the opposite. The other day in HKG Flt 61, the Capt asked for more fuel, and the gateway ordered more fuel and the dispatcher sent an ARTR for the incresed fuel burn and planned weights...factual event.

At the ACMI, if I ordered more fuel it would have taken at least 3 hours. We didn't have our own employees working the ground staff it was a handler, that really didnt give a poop, we didnt have satcom, ACARS, CPDLC, or an office where we could get our own paperwork, we would have to go to another airline and borrow their SITA address to get our paperwork, and it never came out in the clean form we get it at UPS, it was always had pages that went on past the page break so the info was all over the place. Do you think our paperwork was right ? Usually not, it was not uncommon to be on Amendment 5 or 6 before we even took off.

Do you think our flights plans ever made it to flow control in Brussels. Usually not.

When UPS started flying into Almaty a year and half ago ACPs called new hires and FDX ACPs in to help them plan it, because a handful of new hires used to fly thru Almaty, Biskek, Tashkent, and Urumqi before. With all the experience in SDF, why would UPS waste their time talking to us inexperienced new hires about ops into these cities ?

We had flight followers, not rated dispatchers, who were Embry Riddle interns as our worldwide dispatchers. At UPS the dispatchers have certificates and are accountable to the FAA. Are you really sure being a Capt at UPS is harder than it was at any ACMI...puhhleease. Untill you see how the poor live, don't tell them what's it's like to be poor.

I'll never say I've seen it all, but here at UPS this is a cake walk, and our dispatchers and the support we get in comparison to other places makes it work just fine.

I gotta ask, are you really that unhappy working for UPS and think this is a crummy outfit ? I find that hard to believe since many of the very experienced here have decided to fly past age 60 instead of leaving so they must think this is a good gig too.

I'm very lucky and very thankful I'm not working at some of the other places, and if I left today there would be 10,000 applicants that would happily step into my spot.

I've said my peace...this is a good gig. Your mileage may vary.

Over and out, I'll go back to my igloo.


FF

Pretty interesting comparison however I think the over 60 guys/gals would've stayed even if this was the worst airline in the world. It simply boils down to 5 extra years of earnings (especially when the economy turns sour) and more importantly 5 more years of our premium health insurance, which after 4 airlines is the best I've ever had.
Not to forget, many just can't imagine a life without their Clark benefits. :rolleyes:

Flifast,

Thank you for your kind remarks concerning the Dispatchers at UPS. We do appreciate it.


757,

I had a long response typed up but deleted it. Not worth my time. We deal with know-it-all and closed-minded crews like you on a daily basis. Any time you want to actually see what we do, stop on by. You are more than welcome to sit with me.