aseweepay

This AA vs TWA crap is so old. Being one of the "Native AA" furloughees that is lucky enough to be wearing brown right now I consider myself very fortunate, just like you, FliFast. I would have respected your post more if you had said, "I missed you mention that they furloughed 2800+ AA pilots too...." There are people on both sides that feel screwed after the acquisition, let's no poke at old wounds. After reading this management tripe, those guys are going to have to stick together and fight the good fight...Good luck to all AA pilots....(with how the industry is, good luck to all commercial airline pilots)

ClipperJet

Back to the thread....

If AA management gives in and pays their 737 Captains $275 an hour (per slide number 30) the only question is: Will they taxi faster?

AAflyer

Hell Ya!!

AA

Thanks Flifast!! I knew I could count on you!!

B757200ER

It's not 'old' if affected you greatly. I've been furloughed SIX YEARS Jan 1, and one more year I'll be furloughed longer than my longevity. It'll probably happen, since no recall until summer '09.

It's all about perspective. Yours and mine obviously differ. Don't discount FliFast's or anyone else's because it isn't the same as yours.

7576FO, you always have good posts. I would normally counter with a tit-for-tat rebuttal about your numbers, but it wouldn't serve any purpose. However, one small point I'd like to make regarding your qoute "I recall in '02 all TWA pilots were covered by Green Book/APA contract pay rates, which was a 35% pay raise for all TWA pilots" .

Not entirely true; I was a B-767 Int'l F/O at TWA making $93/hr, and when we went to Green Book, I got a raise to $117/hr. That was only 20%, not 35%, and here is my real point: What good is a 35/20% raise if your seniority is stripped and you're FURLOUGHED?

(That is obviously a 100% pay cut, which is what FliFast was alluding to)

Forgive us furloughed pilots who don't get all emotional or upset about AA vs. APA battles that we haven't been involved in over 6 years, we just don't have the energy. 'Not having a dog in the fight' (as Mike Vick would say), couldn't aply more here. We're so far removed from AA drama that it just doesn't bother us anymore.

aa73

FliFast,

I posted the response, and I did it because, while I also hold you in high esteem, you have the uncanny ability to turn *ANYTHING* AA related into an AA-TWA bashing thread. I'm serious. I'm not asking you to move on - I would never do that. Just asking you to stick to the topic if you feel inclined to post a response.

Nobody here is questioning whether *AA* furloughees (yes, that includes you) got screwed - you did, and then some. What I'm getting at is this - I will UNDOUBTEDLY vote YES if we get presented with a contract that restores our rightful pay and work rules we lost in 2003, even with probable job cuts. And most of my junior coworkers would do the same. You see, we look long-term at this career to make it a worthwhile career, even if that involves a furlough.

Management would absolutely love to hear pilots saying "I'd rather take a 23% pay cut than a furlough." That is right out of their play book. Don't fall for it.

Above all, happy and safe holidays to you and your family.
73

aseweepay

Perhaps saying it's "getting old" was a bad choice of words, and yes it is about perspective. You think I am discounting FliFast because I think it would have been better for him to point out "let's not forget about the furloughed pilots at AA" instead of making it another AA v.s. TWA pilots thing ? I respectfully disagree with you. I am not discounting him at all, just pointing out that it wasn't only "TWA" pilots that were sacraficed.
Hopefully you found something better after getting furloughed and if not, I hope AA is a decent place to come back to when you finally make it back.

Wheels up

I especially liked that AA "promises" not to furlough anyone as a result of:

1. The huge increase in the number of hours and days that pilots would be forced to work.
2. Total control over an opaque and secretive scheduling system
3. Scope being essentially gutted and AA being allowed to transfer huge amounts of flying and any size aircraft to Eagle
4. Unrestricted code-sharing and flying transfer to domestic and international code-sharing accomplices

Yet there seems to be more than just a few senior ex-TWA captains in STL that would be just fine with the company proposals and throw their now-furloughed compadres under the bus.

X Rated

In 2002 the TWA pilots did move to the Green Book--what isn't usually talked about is that, aside from the hourly wage, the work rules (with the admitted exception of vacation) were, in my opinion, inferior to TWA's. So in many cases, while the hourly went up dramatically, the QOL went down. And this was before the concessionary contract of '03 (which I have no idea about because I was furloughed May 1st of '03--and I'm still out today!!).

Had TWA remained the size it was, all of the '96 hires and senior would have made Captain sometime in 2004 due to TWA's large number of retirements. One could argue that the amount of money lost by these furloughees was larger than "just F/O pay."

Aside from that, let's take a dose of reality with the statement "Anyone hired after 1986 at TWA was ratio'ed in at 8 to 1 all the way down the list."

Absolutely FALSE. Anyone hired between '86 and mid-March '89 was part of the 8:1 ratio that started from the staple point upwards. This wasn't a "top down" ratio. A HUGE difference. Anyone TWA pilot hired after mid-March of '89 was STAPLED after the AA 4/10/01 hire, BD White.

Now with that said, let's hope that the APA doesn't negotiate away the LOS credit to make the furloughees whole. I'm not holding my breath.

X

aa73

APA has always made the furloughees whole. It'll happen again.

Mink

Wow. That scenario is not based in reality.