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Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 559022)
I have never seen the connection of 1000 hours of touch and goes in a 172 to being a better airline pilot. The rules, procedures and flight operations are totally different in part 121 transport category flying from piston VFR.
If a new FO can make it through ground school, the simulator and IOE then they are good enough. If the FAA or management thought that more was necessary then they would have made regulations to reflect that. Why then can't a shortened program be created to provide cadet pilots with what they need and nothing more? The last two and a half years of airline flying have seen the lowest flight time career entrants and also has been the most safe. There is no connection to first officer experience beyond the minimums and added safety. Why would any airline pay more to get pilots with more experience? There is no incentive for airlines to pay more. The job is getting easier thanks to automation. Management knows that they can hire wonder kids who are willing do it for free. Unions are in full retreat. The gene is out of the bottle. I wish things were different. We can't fix this. Skyhigh I agree. Also, all of the daydreaming in the world is not going to change the law of supply and demand, which even affects military aviation (it's arguably a lot tougher to earn a pilot slot now than it was during WWII, for example). The military is very selective because they can AFFORD to be! However, we do have control over our own personal resume. If you feel that the standards of the airlines today are too low, then go out and raise your credentials (so that you can tell them all about it at your next interview!) After you are hired, it is up to the company/FAA to define what the minimum standards are. Aside from that, accept the fact that some folks are going to have more skill than others, and not everyone is going to be an "uber-pilot!" Sometimes you just have to give someone a chance. In my previous career, I saw new hires walk in the door who I thought would never make it, but as it turned out they did fine and had successful careers of their own (and the world didn't come to an end). And by the way, I guess that all of these airlines around the world that utilize cadet/ab-initio programs have horrible safety records and all of their pilots are incompetent!!! http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...ons/icon10.gif |
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Originally Posted by SkyHigh
(Post 559022)
If a new FO can make it through ground school, the simulator and IOE then they are good enough. If the FAA or management thought that more was necessary then they would have made regulations to reflect that. Why then can't a shortened program be created to provide cadet pilots with what they need and nothing more?
The last two and a half years of airline flying have seen the lowest flight time career entrants and also has been the most safe. There is no connection to first officer experience beyond the minimums and added safety. Why would any airline pay more to get pilots with more experience? There is no incentive for airlines to pay more. The job is getting easier thanks to automation. Management knows that they can hire wonder kids who are willing do it for free. Unions are in full retreat. The gene is out of the bottle. I wish things were different. We can't fix this. Skyhigh |
Originally Posted by JetPipeOverht
(Post 559056)
CareerCFI, with a name like this, and your intended inclusion of being that of a non-CA ( with no hopes of ever being one in the 121 Field ) Who are you to make such bold statements about thousands of pilots you've never/will never fly with ? What kind of a man sits back at the computer and throws such disparaging remarks about the state of the industry, when even Skyhigh is of the belief that if you can get through training/IOE you deserve to be there.
I'll sell the tickets to it and donate the proceeds to a charity of your choice. I feel ashamed to call you a brethern at this point and I can only hope you're not making some convoluted connection to what happened in BUF last night to the state of the industry. As stated multiple times by almost everyone on this forum, we're all here to do a job and to do it safely. There is no need for Grey Hairs to ' beat the sense into us ' and tell us not to chew gum in the cockpit. It is no ones fault that the state of the industry is such as it was whenever a pilot gets hired, and no one should be put under scrutiny because of this. When airlines hire, they hire, you jump on if/when you can. For someone to say that the level of what a PAX is getting for the same price of a ticket is less now than it was before, is pig-headed at best, and I only hope some day you wake up from such a dillusion of the mind. If 3 months of training are qualification enough to fly an airline loaded with hundreds of people, so be it. I don't fly airlines and the few I choose, if I absolutely have to, do not yet subscribe to this newsletter... Since I travel long distances I almost never see cockpits with very young or inexperienced pilots. For anything in the U.S. except AK I prefer to either fly myself or (believe it or not) take and prefer the car for this very simple reason. I and many more boycot any and all regionals associated or in a preferred hiring contract with anyone. It's crooked, I know, but, I pay, I say. :D The industry is what it is, mainly because some people love to do a job for next to nothing, while others elect to have well compensated careers. So, with all due respect, other than smiling, and explaining and talking and joking, what has Captain Sullenberger done for your profession? He was and is a much needed hero, we needed something good to happen in all this mud and corruption and the stupid mindless powergames. I need to change my username, to something that does not insult people so much, maybe "numbumaccepteverythingandneverspeakup" then I could lurk and get insulted just for being a member of this holier than thou clubby. Sorry for posting. |
Originally Posted by hiredgun
(Post 559068)
If an F/O is good enough to make it through training then they are good enough for what? To pass a checkride. In our system they are captains in training and a vital part of a two-pilot crew. In yours they are switch monkeys and ballast in an emergency or abnormal scenario. You give the FAA too much credit for "knowing what's necessary". In my 15 years of airline experience I have seen them mandate sound training policy to my employer but too many times it is onerous, wasteful, unnecessary and inadequate. As far as low-time entrants to the industry being safe, I've been on jumpseats more times than I like to remember in the last few years where it's evident the 500 hour wunderkind is sucking wind, the other pilot is carrying them and they're in way over their heads with little a notion about swept-wing jet flying. These are not single pilot aircraft and are not safe to be operated as such when one pilot isn't up to the task. Your assertion that the job is getting easier due to automation only holds an ounce of credence if everything runs perfectly smooth with ideal weather, no system malfunctions, emergencies, traffic delays, icing etc. Automation can't compensate for lack of experience when the sh1t hits the fan and didn't help Sully do his job any better on that day in the Hudson. You speak with great confidence in your opinions of F/Os needing only a couple of systems CDs and a few bounces in the sim, quite a luxury for a C150 captain. We can't fix this eh? That's the spirit! Preemptive surrender. Punting on 3rd down. How's that worked for you? What was your recipe for the future of F/Os in the industry? Oh yah, "good enough to get by". Hope your standards are higher when you fly the 150.
Looks like I am not all so alone. Wait until someone accuses you of having made a "sniper" remark on 50 dead people... :eek: Preemptive surrender is only an option of you see no others hiredgun! Seeing other peoples points and options is not exactly a hobby of us... holy pilots. We know better, we don't know how to fix it, and we worry about China, and India, and Russia maybe, but the way others say is never the way to fix it. If our pilot population had any pride left discussions like these would be utterly obsolete. The truth hurts. And hurt dogs bark. I'm tired of being cut short money for doing something I believe and think and try to stand up for 121 people every chance I have. I am tired of being asked to get a "bridge course" to become a functioning robot in a CRJ. I need airplane knowledge, motivation, the ability to learn, and a good, well paid training captain that became a training captain because he is able to carry himself professionally. Further I do not believe to deserve to sit there unless I can do what the guy on the left seat can, in case he/ she sucks a valve. The 767/777/747 A340/ A330 and MD11 guys I know (FO & CA) did not get there quickly. Neither did they get to their initial gigs with Commuters before having proven themselves in the field. You still don't get to fly a widebody with 250 hours, so this is a good thing. The guys/ gals who sit there are at least not some shot to the moon high debt individual who lost his backbone 6 years ago. This is your CAREER people, don't let it be a simple Job and it won't be one. It will all cook down to people sticking up for each other. No union will ever do this, because the last person the union can really fight is it's pilot member. We are our own worst enemy. |
So far off topic it seems time to remove sullenburger from the title. Feel free to start over.
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