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My letter of response to Delta union Reps

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My letter of response to Delta union Reps

Old 02-17-2009, 03:29 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by johnso29 View Post
Yup, the WBs are available to the Greenbook guys now. But only after ALL the Redbook Guys got on in front of them. Their career expectations @ the time of the merger did not include WB flying, & that's why they had to wait so long to get it. They didn't expect it when they were hired at Republic, so why should they have gotten it with the merger?
That is incorrect. Only the wide body seats held by red book pilots at the time of the merger were protected for 20 years. All the additional wide bodies were shared 1 for 1. Many hundreds of green book pilots retired as wide body captains BEFORE many red book pilots ever saw a wide body.

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Old 02-17-2009, 03:36 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Joemerchant View Post
It's not bad considering it was a 66 seat turboprop...
Yes it is Joe. It's really bad. Until you see that, folks like you will continue to be management's best friend. Until you see that, folks like you will continue to be the main cause of our once proud profession's decline.

Originally Posted by Joemerchant View Post
What does a Delta DC9 captain make these days? By the way YOU are doing your job for less than your predecessors...
We are doing it for less because a bankruptcy judge ORDERED it. You work for less by choice.

Originally Posted by Joemerchant View Post
You are what we call a HYPOCRITE....
Your working for anything offered to you is what we call a COWARD...

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Old 02-17-2009, 03:46 AM
  #133  
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If anyone really believe that an ATR CA making 100k a year is part of the problem.... then your expectations are PART of the problem. 100K a year to fly a 66 seat TP with probably a very senior schedule... decent QOL...etc....thats not the problem. Pay has always been relative in this industry. I believe this is an insane industry because BOTH MGT and LABOR ( pilots ) have been executing the same freaking game plans over and over again....and expect a different result...thats insanity. If labor does not THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX this time around.... it will be disastrous.

TOO many ego's in this thread. And EGO's are why this conundrum will be with this industry for along time to come.
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Old 02-17-2009, 03:53 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by HercDriver130 View Post
If anyone really believe that an ATR CA making 100k a year is part of the problem.... then your expectations are PART of the problem. 100K a year to fly a 66 seat TP with probably a very senior schedule... decent QOL...etc....

TOO many ego's in this thread. And EGO's are why this conundrum will be with this industry for along time to come.
Nothing egotistical about having the lives of 66 people under your responsibility and wanting to be fairly compensated for the role and the experience needed to get there.

A surgeon goes through the same level of training and experience. He/she is only responsible for one life at a time. They would never consider 100K per year to be fair compensation.

Keep on striving to lower the bar though. Sounds like the only way you'll ever be able to hurdle it.

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Old 02-17-2009, 04:01 AM
  #135  
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FWIW... I personally feel the mainline carriers should take all the flying under their BRAND if you will back in house. Take all the aircraft and pilots as well staple, with fences.... and perhaps 1 year of longevity for each 4 or 5 years at their current company. Take it BACK and KEEP it at all costs, because if the dont, I fear all of our mainline carriers will be international flag carriers with little or no inhouse domestic feed... it will have all been scoped away.

As for the fear of taking all the pilots on.... time and training will weed out those that dont belong....
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:07 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Nothing egotistical about having the lives of 66 people under your responsibility and wanting to be fairly compensated for the role and the experience needed to get there.

A surgeon goes through the same level of training and experience. He/she is only responsible for one life at a time. They would never consider 100K per year to be fair compensation.

Keep on striving to lower the bar though. Sounds like the only way you'll ever be able to hurdle it.

Carl
Who determines whats fair Carl? I mean lets say a mainline CA flying a 250 seat aircraft makes 250K a year.... whats fair compensation for someone flying an aircraft basically one quarter the size?

Better yet.. why dont we just pay everyone the same... ONE CA scale... ONE FO scale.... sure worked well in the military.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:11 AM
  #137  
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Joe,
Here is the main problem with your argument of Delta pilots taking your job and your flying. It is not your flying. ASA has never in the time that you have been there sold an ASA ticket for an ASA flight to go from ATL to Hilton Head, SC or even the Redneck riviera, Panama City. Those have been Delta bought codes and routes for longer than both of us have been in this business. The same goes for every regional bar three that I can think of: Comair did a little, ACA, and Air Wisconsin are the main ones that come to mind.
If I take "your" job to fly a T-prop or a 76 seat jet to fly a Delta owned code route from ATL to PNS then so be it. I happen to work for the company that owns the flying. As soon as you realize that management constantly lies, there primary goal is job protection and pleasing the stockholder (BOD) then life becomes really simple. If Delta continues within the next several years to reduce the impact that our regional carriers have on our operation then your management will blame it on all the Mainline pilots forcing management to take your job away from you. If Delta starts to increase the utilization of regionals I can bet you a cup of coffee that my management will blame it on our Union not willing to subcomb to their demands. (Well maybe not as long as Moak is there)

I do not wish any malious on you or anyone else but it is the Contractors (Delta) flying, not the sub contractors (ASA, et all).

You are right that ALPA needs to figure out what it wants to do. Does it want to be a "therapist" and tell all of us its going to be alright or decide to finally tell everyone the reality of life. By the way I personally don't have the slightest clue what "the reality" is.

Please don't take it personally, I don't. But if flying a 76 seat jet at a comparable wage to what I am making now offers me a better quality of life and more time for baseball games, dates with the wife, and more rounds of golf: and if that flying is owned by Delta then I want it and I am willing to fight tooth and nail for it. Are you willing to lower your wage and undercut Mainline rates and work rules for job protection? Managment is banking on it.

Your experience in the aviation system should be accounted for if you decide to change jobs. I do not believe in transferable seniority if you leave one company for another. What I think would be more appropriate would be a pay rate comensurate with your experience based on your job description. What that pay rate is I do not have the foggiest. Your experience in the aviation world is something that needs to be paid for by the company. You have flying into the same airports as me, dealing with the same issues for the most part, why not pay you for your level of experience? The devil is in the details. DOH is a mute point and will go nowhere with any Mainline pilot. The old guys refuse it, the military guys don't necessarily understand it, and the regional guys that left there old company to start at Delta will never let your 15 years at ASA ever trump them because they chose to leave and try another gig. That is the ugly truth to that matter.

ALPA has a lot of work to do and I am not sure if they are up to the task at the present time. This whole thing has become a cancer that needs to be looked at very soon or our entire profession will continue to degrade past the point of "Fancy Bus Driver".

Fair winds Joe and keep it dirty side down.
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:19 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by HercDriver130 View Post
Who determines whats fair Carl? I mean lets say a mainline CA flying a 250 seat aircraft makes 250K a year.... whats fair compensation for someone flying an aircraft basically one quarter the size?
Fair is what the marketplace can afford and a collective bargaining unit can achieve. Fair is not what a failed management team can persuade a bankruptcy judge to do. Fair is not collectively bargaining when some of your own members call it EGO if we hold the position that 100K per year is too low for an airline pilot.

Originally Posted by HercDriver130 View Post
Better yet.. why dont we just pay everyone the same... ONE CA scale... ONE FO scale.... sure worked well in the military.
Works good for UPS as well. News flash dude...UPS captains make more than 100K per year.

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Old 02-17-2009, 04:23 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Selcall View Post
Joe,
Here is the main problem with your argument of Delta pilots taking your job and your flying. It is not your flying. ASA has never in the time that you have been there sold an ASA ticket for an ASA flight to go from ATL to Hilton Head, SC or even the Redneck riviera, Panama City. Those have been Delta bought codes and routes for longer than both of us have been in this business. The same goes for every regional bar three that I can think of: Comair did a little, ACA, and Air Wisconsin are the main ones that come to mind.
If I take "your" job to fly a T-prop or a 76 seat jet to fly a Delta owned code route from ATL to PNS then so be it. I happen to work for the company that owns the flying. As soon as you realize that management constantly lies, there primary goal is job protection and pleasing the stockholder (BOD) then life becomes really simple. If Delta continues within the next several years to reduce the impact that our regional carriers have on our operation then your management will blame it on all the Mainline pilots forcing management to take your job away from you. If Delta starts to increase the utilization of regionals I can bet you a cup of coffee that my management will blame it on our Union not willing to subcomb to their demands. (Well maybe not as long as Moak is there)

I do not wish any malious on you or anyone else but it is the Contractors (Delta) flying, not the sub contractors (ASA, et all).

You are right that ALPA needs to figure out what it wants to do. Does it want to be a "therapist" and tell all of us its going to be alright or decide to finally tell everyone the reality of life. By the way I personally don't have the slightest clue what "the reality" is.

Please don't take it personally, I don't. But if flying a 76 seat jet at a comparable wage to what I am making now offers me a better quality of life and more time for baseball games, dates with the wife, and more rounds of golf: and if that flying is owned by Delta then I want it and I am willing to fight tooth and nail for it. Are you willing to lower your wage and undercut Mainline rates and work rules for job protection? Managment is banking on it.

Your experience in the aviation system should be accounted for if you decide to change jobs. I do not believe in transferable seniority if you leave one company for another. What I think would be more appropriate would be a pay rate comensurate with your experience based on your job description. What that pay rate is I do not have the foggiest. Your experience in the aviation world is something that needs to be paid for by the company. You have flying into the same airports as me, dealing with the same issues for the most part, why not pay you for your level of experience? The devil is in the details. DOH is a mute point and will go nowhere with any Mainline pilot. The old guys refuse it, the military guys don't necessarily understand it, and the regional guys that left there old company to start at Delta will never let your 15 years at ASA ever trump them because they chose to leave and try another gig. That is the ugly truth to that matter.

ALPA has a lot of work to do and I am not sure if they are up to the task at the present time. This whole thing has become a cancer that needs to be looked at very soon or our entire profession will continue to degrade past the point of "Fancy Bus Driver".

Fair winds Joe and keep it dirty side down.
Nice post..... only downside I see is that DAL mgt will NEVER pay you what you make now to fly 76 seat jets.

The real underlying current here is the prejudice that so called regional pilots are beneath mainline pilots in ability etc. Having flown in the military, regional TP's, 70 seat jets and now corporate aviation... I will say that some of the best AVIATORS I have ever flown with flew ATR's ( and Herc's ).... we had the same prejudice in MAC back in the day... the STRAT MAC guys flying 141's and C-5's all looked down on the lowly Herc drivers.... but at least then I made the same JACK they did!!!
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Old 02-17-2009, 04:27 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by HercDriver130 View Post
The real underlying current here is the prejudice that so called regional pilots are beneath mainline pilots in ability etc.
Now if only we could get the regional pilots to quit promoting the prejudice by working for far less than their experience justifies.

Carl
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