[quote=NuGuy;559354]Heyas Sailing,

That article referenced a cycle rate equivalent to 1998 utilization, which dropped significantly post 2001. NWA's own internal documents show airframe life well beyond 2012.

All the airframes are above 90,000 cycles as we speak. NWA originally thought there were timing out in 2010. Utilization has been lower and they can go to 2012. If you have questions on this or the fleet plan I would ask your reps for information from the MEC meeting last week. Lots of info was passed. I am not sure what is public knowledge and what is not so as I said ask your reps. I did not like the news.

Perfect example of WHY we need reassurance that Scope WILL be protected!

Not even close to what I was told by the Fleet Manager last year. Please stop spreading inaccurate info.

[quote=johnso29;559361]Ok, tell us what the accurate information is? The company has said all along they plan to retire the nines in 2012. They will require a major teardown at the point. Delta has said they will not make that investment. Its not a good thing for any Delta pilots however it is the fleet plan. Again talk to your reps about the meeting last week.

I just mentioned it several posts back. The NWA Fleetplan had the last DC9 retiring after 2020. Many DC9s aren't much past 60,000 cycles. That's what I was told just last year by the DC9 Fleet Manager. I have no doubt that plans have changed under the merged plans, but you continually insist the DC9s are incapable of flying past 2012. That is not accurate.

He has been poo pooing the DC9s since merger talk began.

Well in 1998 the DC-9 fleet had 65,000 to 70,000 cycles according to the NWA fleet manager. 10 years later you say they have less cycles now. I find that just a bit hard to believe. There is no doubt the airframes can go to 2020. I have never said they were incapable. What I have said is the current fleet plan is to have them all retired by the end of 2012. If they do the overhaul required around 100,000 cycles they can go to 200,000 cycles. There are no plans to do that overhaul. I have never seen a NWA fleet plan that had the aircraft flying to 2020. As you can see in 98 they planned to fly them to 2010. There was also a letter detailing NWA plans sent your MEC from NWA management. It was introduced as evidence at the hearings. Again your reps got a lot of info last week. Talk to them.

you just want to run up the ladder fast, no matter whom you stick it to. 2007, eh. Hmmm, I guess it is the integration you oppose mostly, is it not?

Yes, let's trust #'s from a news article that's over ten years old. We all know how accurate the media is. :rolleyes: The other night I heard them say the Colgan Q400 accident may have been caused by "carb icing". You also keep using the plan from 1998. I'm telling you what the plan was last year. A lot of things changed from 1998 to 2008. The company went through bankruptcy, and that changed a lot of plans.

Regardless, it's all a moot point because what we hear today will most likely change tomorrow. Heck, when asked about the plan for the DC9s DAL management said to investors "Yesterdays trash is todays treasure."

And today's treasure is tomorrows trash. His numbers and fleet plans are dead on. I see these 76 seat jets filling this gap nicely. :(

First off I will admit I've been drinking. I can't believe I'm going to say this but Carl, I agree 100% with you and your perspective. Ok, fine, there, I said it.

Off course you know that in making that statement Moak did not negotiate the deal. That was done by the grievance committee appointed by the MEC. He is the approving authority for grievance settlements and approved it. This is how grievances have been handled since the first days of DALPA.

Ah, I wasn't really referring to the grievance, just Carl's statements as a whole. As long as we continue to pass minimal contract improvements for ridiculous terms, I will have to maintain my position at Taco Bell. For the record, after this displacement, my pay will be $6/hr less than I was making in 1999 as a 727 FO not even adjusting for inflation. Well at least I get to pay for health insurance, and boy that retirement is great! As long as DALPA keeps bending over so they can shove that widget up our asses, we will continue to be compensated likewise. Maybe Moak could at least have them shove it point first next time.

I know. I have no doubts about those numbers.:( I was just arguing that old NWA planned on flying them longer. But, as I said earlier it's a moot point. I also agree with sailingfun that management has ZERO intention of finding a Mainline 100 seat airplane. It's most likely our pilot group will shrink come 2013 when the retirements start(if not sooner due to furlough) because the DC9s will go to the boneyard and our flying will be further hoared out.:(

There's a first time for everything. :D

When you sober up tomorrow, I'll go back to looking stupid.

Carl

I think you're off course with that statement. :D

The problem with DALPA as I see it, is that there are other committees - but they all seem to defer to the judgement of the MEC Chairman. That's a problem. We had a similar situation with NWALPA years ago. It ended very badly.

Carl

You do realize that this makes the company very, very, happy.
BD

Infortunatly I think you are right. I have been saying for several years now that the mainline US carriers ala DAL, UAL, CAL etc... DO NOT want to be in the short or medium haul domestic airline business. They want to fly international, and the cherry picked long haul domestic routes and they have been slowly cedding the domestic structure to smaller jet carriers like SKW, RAH, XJET, etc.... they have been laying this ground work for 20 years. The proof is in the pudding!! When as a S5 pilot I had a trips had overnights in MIA, DEN and YEG ...that is NOT REGIONAL flying. Much of the problem now is that the train has left the station so to speak and it will is going to be a real biatch trying to stop it... good luck.

So, Carl, which points are you referring to with that comment? Is it:

because that part is 100% true. Or perhaps it is this:

but that part is 100% true too. Maybe you meant this:

but that part is 100% true too. I'm getting confused now. Just what are you referring to when you state:

Oh, I know. Maybe this?

but, sadly, that's true too. Remember all the allegations about LOA19 that proved completely unfounded?

OK. I give up, Carl. Just what part were you referring to? I'd really like to know.

PG

Thanks for recapping the utter bullsh!t Pineapple. Everything you were kind enough to post plus the other stuff that you didn't. Utter BS.

Carl

How about we start by making "RECAPTURE" the number one theme in contract negotiations going into 2012. Let's stop talking about SCOPE and start talking about RECAPTURE. What are we willing to do to recapture the flying that has been lost over the years?

Personally, I feel anything over 50 seats, or anything that flies over 300NM should be flown by mainline pilots. There will be something to give initially in order to recapture what's been lost, if it's even possible. What are WE willing to give? I don't know the answer, but I'm throwing it out there for debate.

If it's got traction, call your REPs and let them know how you feel. If this is something that we really want, then it's going to take everyone getting involved to make change happen. I believe giving up scope has been a major detriment to our industry. We've allowed regionals to fly bigger and bigger equipment over the years. This has allowed management the opportunity to whipsaw the regionals against each other. We've all seen the carnage. We've all seen the degradation of our brand. We blame ALPA. We blame the regionals. We even blame the pilots that are just trying to build their time to get to the majors (which we shouldn't).

I don't know the answer, but I really think it lies with us, the majors. We gave it up, now we need to get it back. What's it worth to you?

Finally someone who gets it. First get rid of Lee Moak. He has no regard for any junior pilots or compass. And he is supposed to represent both.

How do we go about this? Our future as pilots is looking worse and worse by the day...

+5

Another fact filled post by Carl. Great rebuttal there.

PG

I think it is great that people are really miffed. That is a good thing. Now take that anger, and go down to your MEC office and volunteer. There are a lot of people that are needed.

Guys- Two seperate issues. I give Lee and crew an A+ for the merger effort and a D- for Scope related issues. The merger is history, lets look forward.

Scoop

Your usually good info is off on this - there is a large spread in the number of cycles remaining on the DC9 fleet - true that some will time out in the next few years (and most have already been retired), and equally true that half the remaining (of the original ~173) will be good until ~2020 if navaid updates are made.

The real question is whether 1) navaid updates will actually be required, 2) whether DAL chooses to perform them or not, 3) the price of oil, 4) the state of economy and load factors, and 5) the availability of other next generation 100 seat lift.

Anyone who supposes to have the definitive answer to these and the immediate future of the DC9 based on 10 yr old articles, arbitration testimony, and CP scuttlebutt is deluding themselves.

I'll venture the fleet planners don't even no which direction they are going yet.

That's all the effort your posts deserve Pineapple. This continuation of the premise that NWA was worthless is hardly deserving of any response at all.

Carl

Carl, you always twist words. Go back and reread my post. There wasn't a single negative comment about NWA or their line pilots. I have complete confidence that we are all the same, and will work well together, once given the opportunity.

The only negative comments dealt with a handful of obstructionist individuals working for NWA ALPA. Fortunately they did not prevail, the JCBA and SLI are behind us, and we are moving forward collectively for the betterment of all, rather than imploding ala USAir, who I predict will NEVER see a payraise, because the two sub groups will NEVER be willing to work together to demand one. And management NEVER offers anything out of the goodness of their heart. :mad:

Let me repeat: I have nothing but the utmost respect for Northwest Airlines, and the line pilots who work there, and look forward to working along side them for the remainder of my career.

My comments are not about the airworthiness of the aircraft. It is about the plans that our management team has stated. I agree that they can continue flying. It is just what the desire of management wants to do.

I have an idea. Why don't all of you problem solvers get over on the Delta MEC forums and start taking up some bandwidth--insert slow forum comment here. You know, something that might actually getting some union leadership heads turning. Deaf ears here, deaf ears here. Get in there and make a difference, or at least try.

I am trying to get things noticed trust me.

You just don't get it Pineapple. Our people worked very hard and smart. As did yours. You call our guys obstructionist - but we're not supposed to take that as negative?

You do NOT have the utmost respect for us. Anyone can do a search of your many previous posts and judge for themselves. But in my opinion, you and a handful of others stand out as the most negative toward NWA and its pilots.

Flame away, but I'm done with this - as is the rest of the thread I'm sure.

Carl