Captains Sullenberger & Haynes
 

Below is an e-mail forwarded to me that speaks for itself.

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USAPA Special Update: Flight 1549
February 13, 2009

Fellow Pilots,
The following article written by Captain Sullenberger will appear in next week's issue of Newsweek.

All I Wanted Was to Talk to My Family, and Get Some Dry Socks
One month ago, I landed Flight 1549 safely in the Hudson River. In some ways, that was the easy part.

Capt. Chesley B. Sullenberger III
NEWSWEEK

From the magazine issue dated Feb 23, 2009
The night of the accident, after we'd safely accounted for all 155 people on the airplane, left the hospital, finally reached the hotel—the pilots' union and the NYPD whisking us away—I remember thinking that my needs were very simple. I'd lost all my belongings; I'd had the most harrowing three minutes of my life. All I really wanted was to talk to my family, and get some dry socks.
It's been a month since the airplane I piloted, US Airways Flight 1549, made an emergency landing in the Hudson River.
Since then, the attention given to me and my crew—I'm trying to resist, somewhat unsuccessfully, everyone's attempt to make this about fewer than five people—has obviously been immense. But I still don't think of myself as a celebrity. It's been a difficult adjustment, initially because of the "hero" mantle that was pushed in my direction. I felt for a long time that that wasn't an appropriate word. As my wife, Lorrie, pointed out on "60 Minutes," a hero is someone who decides to run into a burning building. This was different—this was a situation that was thrust upon us. I didn't choose to do what I did. That was why initially I decided that if someone offered me the gift of their thankfulness, I should accept it gratefully—but then not take it on as my own.
As time went by, though, I was better able to put everything in perspective and realize how this event had touched people's lives, how ready they were for good news, how much they wanted to feel hopeful again. Partly it's because this occurred as the U.S. presidency was changing hands. We've had a worldwide economic downturn, and people were confused, fearful and just so ready for good news. They wanted to feel reassured, I think, that all the things we value, all our ideals, still exist—that they're still there, even if they're not always evident.
When I was very young, my father impressed upon me that a commander is responsible for the welfare of everyone in his care. Any commander who got someone hurt because of lack of foresight or poor judgment had committed an unforgivable sin. My father was a dentist in the Navy, serving in Hawaii and San Diego from 1941 to 1945. He never saw combat, but he knew many who did. In the military, you get drilled into you the idea that you are responsible for every aspect of everyone's welfare.
During every minute of the flight, I was confident I could solve the next problem. My first officer, Jeff Skiles, and I did what airline pilots do: we followed our training, and our philosophy of life. We valued every life on that airplane and knew it was our responsibility to try to save each one, in spite of the sudden and complete failure of our aircraft. We never gave up. Having a plan enabled us to keep our hope alive. Perhaps in a similar fashion, people who are in their own personal crises—a pink slip, a foreclosure—can be reminded that no matter how dire the circumstance, or how little time you have to deal with it, further action is always possible. There's always a way out of even the tightest spot. You can survive.
Even though we had a successful outcome, it's human nature to wonder about the what-ifs. The second-guessing was much more frequent, and intense, in the first few days at night, when I couldn't sleep. It was hard to shut my brain off and get back to sleep. Sometimes I didn't, I couldn't. It was part of the posttraumatic stress that we have all felt, that each of the crew members has reported to each other.
It's funny—for the first two weeks after the accident, Jeff kept telling me, "I just want my old life back." But the other day he finally said for the first time, "You know, this is OK. I'm learning to like this. This is good." I think he's coming to terms with what's happened. He realizes that he's entitled to the attention. That he can still be true to himself. That accepting it isn't selling out.
Besides the outpouring of support from the passengers, the most touching sentiments I have received have been from other pilots. They tell me that because of the years of economic difficulties faced by the airline industry and its employees and the decreased respect for the profession, they have not felt proud to go to work—some of them for decades. Now, they tell me, they do. And they thank me for that. They thank us, the crew, because we've reminded people what all of us do every day, what's really at stake. They feel like they've regained some of the respect they'd lost.
What's next? I will return to flying for my airline—when I'm ready. I'm not sure when that will be. Probably a few months. I still haven't had many nights at home. My family and I are trying hard to remain true to ourselves and not let this change us, but there's a steep learning curve. The trajectory of our lives has changed forever. And we're determined to make good come out of this in every way that we can.
Capt. Sullenberger and his crew saved all 155 lives aboard US Airways Flight 1549.

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On July 19, 1989, Captain Al Haynes of United Air Lines was in command of flight 232, a DC-10. Everyone should know about that flight – if not, you owe yourself a favor to do some research!

I think of these two men and how they both faced their incredible circumstances and I think that these men, although very different, are really cut from the same cloth. They were both Captains, with a capital “C”.

Somehow or other, I hope these two men get to meet each other.

Good update on the crew's progress...! I've certainly been more proud of my uniform since 1549, but it makes me wonder what this business will be like when the last of the Sully's and Haynes's retire from our Flightdecks.

Do you really not think that there are other Sullys or Haynes out there already and many more in the wings ready to follow in their steps? To me that is like saying that there are no more Dan Dalys in the military - and yet time and time again we prove that wrong with actions of people like Shughart/Gordon or Michael Murphy.

USMCFLYR

So are you honestly implying that if anyone else than Sully would've been in control on that day those passengers would've been doomed? :confused:

I'm sorry but I don't buy that argument. A severe clear, day-VFR flight right over an un-obstructed river and very close to all kinds of rescue equipment makes me believe other pilots (yes, including the FO on that flight :eek:) would've probably been able to achieve a successful water landing too.

I think they all did a great job but let's stop this process of creating modern Gods - even Sully finds the whole glorification process uncomfortable...

I've had the privilege of meeting Capt. Al Haynes in person and he too disliked the "one-person-cult" some wanted to create out of his accident.

In fact, initially when his first officer was struggling with the controls and he hadn't realized how serious the situation was, he took over the controls from him and said "my controls." I’ll have to paraphrase him but he said something like "that was a very stupid thing of me to say because I immediately realized I was not in control of that aircraft!”

He emphasized that had it not been for the team work of his FO and the jumpseating pilot and the assistance they got from the ATC no one would have survived.

So in my opinion, statements such as yours implying the aviation profession might be doomed once our “Living Gods” pass on is not what Capt. Haynes (and I'm sure Capt. Sully too) had in mind when he (they) emphasized team work.

Agree 100%

We are all the sons and daughters of Ernie Gann, St.Ex, Len Morgan, and all the giants, and pioneers who went before us. This profession is a sacred trust. The other Sullys are out there, flying the line, anonymously,till fate taps them on the shoulder and its their turn in the box. I've met Capt. Haynes, in my prior life at an ALPA conference, like Sully,he made me proud to wear stripes.

Captains Haynes and Sullenberger have one more very important thing in common:

Captain Sullenberger wishes people would stop saying his name while ignoring the contributions of Jeff Skiles. And those of the flight attendants. And those of the rescuers.

Captain Haynes wishes people would stop saying his name while ignoring the contributions of Will Records, Dudley Dvorak, and Denny Fitch. And those of the flight attendants. And those of the rescuers.

After the crash in 1989, Captain Haynes encountered a problem similar to Sullenberger's: No matter how many times each of them point out the critical role each member of the crew had to play, the media insist on painting the captains as heroes in the classic Übermensch frame. Since it's our job as pilots to learn everything we can from each of these accidents, it's probably best to start with the factor both captains keep pointing to: CRM. Or CLR in Haynes' case, or whatever they call it at your airline of choice.

And while we're on the topic, This should be required reading for anybody who has any intention of ever flying an airplane.

It wasn’t the fact that it was either Haynes or Sullenberger that just happened to be pilots that saved the day… it just happened to be that it was two pilots, in two separate incidents, one named Haynes, and the other Sullenberger that saved the day. What saved the day was their dedication and discipline to their profession. I would like to think that all of us would perform in the same manner as these two distinguished gentlemen did under such extreme conditions.

Who knows… the next pilot to save the day, and I preface that may it never happen, may be Goldberg, or Smith… or who ever...

Sioux City: United 232 heavy, winds currently 360 at 11, three sixty at
eleven, you're cleared to land on any runway.

UAL 232: You don't want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?


Even after going through all that, they are still able to make a little joke there. Amazing.

Great article. However, I am not going to sell my potential short or that of anybody else here by making a comment regarding how we won't have any great airmen left after the Sully's and Haynes' are all retired.

Not much resistance when you make appearances on 60 minutes, the major networks, CNN and others patting yourself on the back.

Opinions will vary, but I believe it was more that just "two pilots". BOTH cockpits/cabins had very competent people in them, regardless of which seat/position they were occupying.

Both cockpit/cabin crews did outstanding jobs.

If you research Sioux City a little more, there were A LOT of factors that helped reduced the amount of fatalities. Just like the Hudson situation, there are a lot of things that were in their favor that day.

Had some of those factors not been there, they could have ended up worse than they did.

The interviews you see on TV is not what is portrayed by those being interviewed. It’s known as sound bites and creative editing without guidance or participation from those being interviewed… that’s where sensationalism comes into the mix.

Let’s assume Sullenberger referenced his F/O, and his F/As throughout the raw interview. It was the Journos who deleted most references to them. It was the Journos who wanted only ONE hero… that “HERO” was Sullenberger, and not the entire crew.

Journos don’t know, let alone care, that a crew operates as one… and that hero was the CREW.

Sullenberger is categorically NOT the type to say, “I want to thank the little people who made this possible for me.”

You are right on the money… but it goes far beyond the flight deck and the cabin crews.

In the case of the Hudson River water landing… minimally, you have ATC, ferry boat crews, NYPD, NYFD, NY and NJ Emergency Services, and civilians on both sides of the river.

As for the Sioux City incident, minimally, you have ATC, Airport Fire and Rescue, Hospital Triage centers, and civilians too.

I humbly apologize to the rest of the participants responsible for the life saving efforts, who I did not mention in my comments above… for they too should be included and categorized as heroes as their efforts made the difference between life and death.

Both Sully and Haynes and their cabin crews have made, and will continue to make that fact known.

Agree 100%!

Well, I do wonder what he meant when he said:

"Circumstance determined that it was this experienced crew that was scheduled to fly on that particular flight on that particular day," Sullenberger said during the ceremony honoring him..."

At what point does someone become experienced in Sully's world? :confused:

The crew is only considered "experienced" when the narrator of the story was one of the crew.......

I have to admit... I'm confused by your question.

Deleted...

Well said.

Maybe all of us who have no idea how it would have turned out if we were in charge or if the circumstances would have been different should just analyze every word out of Sully's mouth and every facial expression he makes instead of just being thankful that he was the guy who got the call that day instead of the bitter, old, cranky SOB that we have all had to sit next to at some time or another. Way to take something good, and beat it until we find something bad to talk about. Imagine if a microphone was in your face every time you opened your mouth, and everybody over analyzed everything you had to say. These boards would eventually make every one of us into crazy egomaniacs.

Thanks Sully for doing our job in a way we should all be proud of.

So, what you are saying is that the "the bitter, old, cranky SOB that we have all had to sit next to at some time or another" coudn't pull off a water landing on the Hudson river that day?

So, Sully did the job that some of you, or perhaps the person who sits next to you could not do?

That's not exactly confidence inspiring.

Then again, Sully did get his share of grief from some of you at these forums, who thought that there were 5 hands on that side stick when it landed in the Hudson.

I gotta tell ya, some of the stuff I read from some of you 121 guys about Sully, at best, was disgusting. Seriously, some of your egos were so out of check it was not funny.

So, now, some of you woke up, yet you still talk about "the bitter, old, cranky SOB that we have all had to sit next to at some time or another".
I mean, we have folks here, via the posts they have made, who cannot comprehend why Sully took over the controls after the engines quit.

That's sad, very sad.

Frankly, I think Skiles could have greased her on the Hudson too, but I just assume have the pilot with way more experience in type and total to give it a shot. After all, there is a reason why he/she has 4 stripes and the title "captain", although I realize that many of you will not understand that.

Again, some of the things you 121 folks said about Sully in other threads here made me want to vomit. It seems like most of you couldn't deal with his "60 Minutes" interview because he used "I".

Indeed, it took a crew for everyone to survive and get out of the plane, but last time I checked It was just one pilot's hand on the stick, and that got the plane on the river with no immediate fatalities.

It's also a river that I have flown over and sailed out of many times. I live overlooking it too.

Guys, relax. We dont need to examine every little word and action of Capt Sully. Capt Sully peformed his duty just as every Captain would've. There were plenty of variables that could've changed the outcome ie overcast, wind, rain, departing on a different runway nonetheless; Capt Sully deserves our respect. He's handled all the fame like a true professional and has shed light on many of our concerns like pay, qol, furloughs and mergers.
Capt Sully is right when he said "this used to be a career that people admired and one that our children would strive to achieve. At this point I dont think any of us would want our children to follow in our footsteps".
We pilots need to stick together and not waste time on assumptions. Godspeed.

Most of us "121 folks" do understand it - we call it seniority, or the more time on property the better seniority... How do you do it in your Cessna 210? The person who owns the airplane gets 4 stripes?

Not sure why you're getting so mad, a message forum is so people can ask questions and discuss different issues. Even those issues that you don't like to be discussed.

Apologize for the sarcastic response but you seem to have strong opinions about "some of the 121 folks" for someone who only knows this industry from the private pilot and the flight simulation industry angle (based on your website's profile).

There are literally thousands and thousands of airline pilots out there so it's only natural to see many diverging opinions in this and in other forums.

Good point and I retract my earlier question.

I don't have a dog in this fight but I'd like to point out that in a seniority-based system, knowledge and experience has less than nothing to do with who is a CA and who isn't. The only reason most CA's are in that position is because they have been there longer. Obviously, there are exceptions. Many FO's choose not to upgrade for a multitude of reasons.

I'm not faulting you for not being in the 121 world but it's hard for someone to understand it unless you've been in it. It's like trying to explain sex to a virgin.

FWIW, Sully made me proud to put on the uniform.

You explained it much better than I did... :D

I want to make it clear that I feel the same way, just like I felt when Capt. Haynes and his crew flew the DC10.

However, the initial remark by ExperimentalAB was a true eye opener to me and I wanted to see if others felt the same way.

In other words that this profession might be doomed once the likes of Haynes and Sully are gone. My contention was and still is that nothing could be further from the truth.

Lou all due respect to you and your experience, however at US Airways, when there is a malfunction, per training and the AQP process, the Captain hands over control to the First Officer IE "Your Control" the response is "My control" then the Captain is supposed to reference the QRH for the appropriate ECAM message or fault and run the entire checklist for the affected fault. After it is fixed, if he so determinse he may again resume control of the aircraft if he was the Pilot Flying or may choose to let the FIrst Officer continure the flight to a Landing ..... That is just how I seem to recall the training to have been.... But then again you may want to call this all hear say....

N850CA, that is true in most cases... however its still the Captain's discretion in regards to who is flying.

In this case, it was an imminent impact. Skiles was fresh off of IOE, so it was more than understandable for Sully to assume control, along with the "I signed for it, I get to wreck it" as well.

This happened to me a few years ago when I was the captain on an MD-11. We were sitting number 1 for takeoff, holding short perpendicular to the runway, onto which we'd make a left turn to align (the first officer had an unobstructed view of the final approach.) Anyway, about 3 miles out was a 737, on approach, when the f/o says to me "look at that, his gear is not down." The f/o then, for the next 5 or 10 seconds, kept talking to me about how dumb those guys were to be so close in to the runway without their gear. He (the f/o) started getting animated, when I picked up the mic and broadcast on tower freq "GEAR", at which point the guys landing gear came down. We said nothing else, and they landed and taxied off while we took the runway for our takeoff.

I guess my point for telling this story is that while seniority may not be a perfect indicator of experience, it is overall, a good indicator. That's not to say that there aren't first officers who are more experienced and more mature than the captains they're flying with at the time, but overall (imho), captains are more mature and more experienced than first officers, especially if you look at their experience at a particular airline. Granted, guys on their 2nd and 3rd airline, bring a ton of experience to their new carrier, but for recent experience, at that airline, the captain usually has more.

I believe that there's a majority of airline pilots out there who would have performed as well as Captain Sullenberger did, both captains as well as first officers. And I'm glad of three things: 1) that everyone survived, with no real physical injuries; 2) that Captain Sully represented our profession well; and finally 3) that it wasn't me flying that jet, that day.

JJ

Well written and well thought of article.

Capt Haynes came to talk to all us military types at ETAR last summer for the quarterly flight safety meeeting. He gave a play by play of what happened to their DC-10 that day. He also never ventured too far forward without mention of his entire crew. I felt priviledged to hear the man speak; something to learn from for all of us who have something to do with operating large aircraft, whether it be civilian or military.

You can wonder all you want but you will likely NEVER hear of another Sully and Haynes until the next "incident" or "accident" with a positive or life-saving outcome.

At which point another "hero(s)" will emerge. After the emergence of this new "hero" you can then add his or her name to your above post and the cycle continues...

Most "hero" types sit quietly in the wings hoping never to get called upon.

Seriously? I'm sorry my sarcasm passed you over without being fully understood. There is a good chance that most professional airline pilots could have pulled off the actual landing in the same conditions. What you don't get is that the physical act of flying the plane is such a small part of the whole story. The professionalism that has been displayed after the fact is what is missing from this society. Everything these days is about passing the blame to somebody else or exploiting anything good for personal gain.

For as much as we have seen of Sully on TV, there is no doubt that if he was in this for personal gain he would be on ten times more magazines and TV shows. And likewise if things wouldn't have gone quite so well, he seems like the kind of guy that would still be out there taking responsibility for his actions. I think it's called integrity, and unfortunately it is in short supply in every profession.

Agree 100%.

Also, not sure if it played any role in his (Sully's) sub-conscious reasoning but nevertheless as a glider pilot (which I believe applies to Sully too) being able to look out at your approximate landing zone from your side window helps tremendously when judging the landing itself. Since they were in a left turn and Sully was in the left seat that might have helped him in his decision too.

Overall, he scored a perfect glider landing! :D

I'm thinking that must have been a SWA 737 and they were simply still slowing down to their "max gear extension" speed... :D

Sorry SWA folks, I'm just keedin' here... ;)

Can’t forget the crew of the Ryanair flight that ingested a flock of starlings and sustained a double engine failure in landing configuration about 2 to 3 miles from landing in Nov. 10th, 2008. The 737-800 was a write off, but everyone walked away from the plane.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...-ciampino.html


Same for the Air Transat Airbus 330 that glided to a landing a couple of years ago.

I see what you're saying as far as the CA having much more experience in the airplane, as well as the "I signed for it so I'll wreck it" way of thinking.

Kind of an apples to oranges comparison. But a coworker once had a prop come off shortly after takeoff, with an FO that was right off of IOE.

We asked him how that worked out, and if he felt like his hands were more than full with the emergency as well as an FO that didn't have much time in the airplane, let alone the airline/multicrew environment. He said it was actually easier, the guy was right out of training and super sharp on his procedures.

Or a perfect "watering" :D

AV8OR -

I've heard many people mention CA Sullenberger's glider experience but I wonder how much it really might have helped. I don't have any glider experience myself but it would seem that without some knowledge of any aircraft's gliding performance that there wouldn't be a sight picture developed. Matter of fact - I could see a glider pilot trying to apply his glider sight picture to an aircraft not capable of such performance and making a serious error in judgment. It has been a long time since I flew GA and my current aircraft doesn't have a best glide airspeed :o but at least smaller GA aircraft havea best glide airspeed and even have a published glide ratio correct? Do CRJ/ERJ, Q400, and larger airliners have such figures available?

USMCFLYR

The 747-200 (classic) has a glide speed chart. Enter the aircraft weight and read the speed at the bottom of the chart.

Yep, they do have the values published, just not labeled "best glide speed". It's found in the take off data speeds.

I don't know anything about 2 engine fighter jet performance so excuse the ignorance. But if you were to lose an engine right after liftoff, is there a speed at which you climb for best angle to ensure obstacle clearance, etc? If so, do you climb to that altitude, then level out to accelerate and then climb at a best rate?

Or do you just just keep climbing at specific speed all the way up?