Regulation-Broken down like a fraction.
03-06-2009, 04:17 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 108
Regulation-Broken down like a fraction.
You should print this out and read it while working, that way you can use it as toilet paper or window cleaning paper when you are done with it.
I hope this makes sense.
Most people don't have an accurate knowledge of what regulation was, or how it worked. Most just think it was a lovely time when pilots got paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, had dirt strips in their backyards, and the hottest FA's on the planet, bathing in their bean-shaped swimming pools-which was on the other side of the mansion-a few feet from where you parked the Cub and the DC-3, that you got to fly 3 times a month because noone ever worked! But, like everything in life there were/are Pro's and Con's.
Regulation was a rubberband, that held all scheduled air operations together. Airlines were KINDA like taxi-cabs-private cabs, like the guys in NYC. The government was the dispatcher-told you where you could go, what you were eligible to use, how many people you could expect when you got there, and what you could charge for the trip. If you wanted it you could take it, if you didn't want it you didn't have to take it. If you accepted the route, not only were you doing those people a service transporting them around, you were doing the government a favor.And you could get better routes by having a good rep with the Aeronautics Board.
********(An interesting note on this-If any of you read this far, a little known fact. This is where most airlines got their names from.PAN AM,TWA,People Express- the larger the company and the more routes the more genral the names of those airlines were,this was because they flew to almost everywhere.Air Florida,KIWI,Western and like names let people know where they flew. So if your family wanted to get to florida-hey you could fly on Air Florida-it may not have been that way,but you get an idea.There are a few exceptions to the name rule, as I have still not found out what country the city of Braniff is in =)**********)
New Taxi-Cab's(Airlines) could apply if they wanted to, but would only be approved on an as needed basis. Today as long as you meet the FAA's safety standards, the DOT's Operating rules, and local/state laws, you can be approved with a pat on the back and a 'good luck'! This may take time but there is no discrimination-if you think you can handle it, and can find slots-you can have it. A company like Virgin America would have had a long hard time trying to get started, especially on a route like Los Angeles to New York, where United/Delta/American/US Airways already operate.Southwest and Alaska would not be doing to good wither, as they wouldn't have that ease of offering 30 flights a day between certain cities, they also would not be able to compete by adding a rediculous amount of frequencies on a route that a competitor was flying.
Cab's have to apy a medallion fee for using the services of their dispatchers (airlines had to pay the AB a very small fee to ensure they made a certain amount of money on routes). This was taken out in taxes.There were never any cash deals-over the table for routes.
Regionals weren't needed/used as much as they are now.If the plane was too big you jsut wouldn't fly it there.The pax would just have to drive to the closest airport.No airline was concerned with smaller jets to access smaller areas, becuase the government wasn't concerned with flying into those small areas.Regionals came from airlines trying to suck money from wherever they could. Thats like a cab company contracting kids on tricycles, or rickshaws-unecessary.
We all saw the Aviator-The concern then was making travel comfortable for pax and economical for companies so that they could keep money that they made.Management wasn't worrried about pinny-pinching and saving their own asses because they already knew how much a route was making them.They knew the cash would be flowing unless they pulled off a route on their own.They weren't hesitant to hand out raises, spend money on quality unifroms/branding/advertising/painting aircraft/training/recruiting.
The idea itslef is perfect and seamless.What causes problems is economic downturns where people can't afford to fly. Not even the government wants to help something(financially) that they know might fail.So when things are going well, aorund the world, things are usually going well here.When the Saudi's are sad that there brothers are being persecuted in another sister country, the gvernment is sad they might lose oil.Which has always and will always be an issue, but thats an issue that has already been explained, and is neither here nor there.
The point here is that regulating the industry in the economic state that we currently find ourselves in, would be futile. It would cost more than it would save.Although after time it would balance itself, maybe by the time our kids are flying, it would be too hard to start now-as airlines are already flying what routes they want to fly.Southwest would have a heart attack if Obama said they could no longer fly MDW-LAX and that instead American could qualify-Southwest would go back to the unknown airline they were in the beginning.Same with every other airline.The appeals to congress would be plentiful, and the lines of airline execs to the white house would stretch from Washington DC to Manhattan.
The easiest part would be fare regulation, as most companies are charging around the same price for the same ticket.But that is about it-Sorry Guys. We can still fight for it, but dont expect anything great for us.For our kids-yes.For us-no.
Regulation-The candy is on the table
De-regulation-The candy is in a mexican puppet held in the air and evryone is trying to crack it open, to get some Jolly Ranchers.
Gettin that Pinata patched up after being hit repeatedly for the last 25 years would be hard.
I hope this makes sense.
Most people don't have an accurate knowledge of what regulation was, or how it worked. Most just think it was a lovely time when pilots got paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, had dirt strips in their backyards, and the hottest FA's on the planet, bathing in their bean-shaped swimming pools-which was on the other side of the mansion-a few feet from where you parked the Cub and the DC-3, that you got to fly 3 times a month because noone ever worked! But, like everything in life there were/are Pro's and Con's.
Regulation was a rubberband, that held all scheduled air operations together. Airlines were KINDA like taxi-cabs-private cabs, like the guys in NYC. The government was the dispatcher-told you where you could go, what you were eligible to use, how many people you could expect when you got there, and what you could charge for the trip. If you wanted it you could take it, if you didn't want it you didn't have to take it. If you accepted the route, not only were you doing those people a service transporting them around, you were doing the government a favor.And you could get better routes by having a good rep with the Aeronautics Board.
********(An interesting note on this-If any of you read this far, a little known fact. This is where most airlines got their names from.PAN AM,TWA,People Express- the larger the company and the more routes the more genral the names of those airlines were,this was because they flew to almost everywhere.Air Florida,KIWI,Western and like names let people know where they flew. So if your family wanted to get to florida-hey you could fly on Air Florida-it may not have been that way,but you get an idea.There are a few exceptions to the name rule, as I have still not found out what country the city of Braniff is in =)**********)
New Taxi-Cab's(Airlines) could apply if they wanted to, but would only be approved on an as needed basis. Today as long as you meet the FAA's safety standards, the DOT's Operating rules, and local/state laws, you can be approved with a pat on the back and a 'good luck'! This may take time but there is no discrimination-if you think you can handle it, and can find slots-you can have it. A company like Virgin America would have had a long hard time trying to get started, especially on a route like Los Angeles to New York, where United/Delta/American/US Airways already operate.Southwest and Alaska would not be doing to good wither, as they wouldn't have that ease of offering 30 flights a day between certain cities, they also would not be able to compete by adding a rediculous amount of frequencies on a route that a competitor was flying.
Cab's have to apy a medallion fee for using the services of their dispatchers (airlines had to pay the AB a very small fee to ensure they made a certain amount of money on routes). This was taken out in taxes.There were never any cash deals-over the table for routes.
Regionals weren't needed/used as much as they are now.If the plane was too big you jsut wouldn't fly it there.The pax would just have to drive to the closest airport.No airline was concerned with smaller jets to access smaller areas, becuase the government wasn't concerned with flying into those small areas.Regionals came from airlines trying to suck money from wherever they could. Thats like a cab company contracting kids on tricycles, or rickshaws-unecessary.
We all saw the Aviator-The concern then was making travel comfortable for pax and economical for companies so that they could keep money that they made.Management wasn't worrried about pinny-pinching and saving their own asses because they already knew how much a route was making them.They knew the cash would be flowing unless they pulled off a route on their own.They weren't hesitant to hand out raises, spend money on quality unifroms/branding/advertising/painting aircraft/training/recruiting.
The idea itslef is perfect and seamless.What causes problems is economic downturns where people can't afford to fly. Not even the government wants to help something(financially) that they know might fail.So when things are going well, aorund the world, things are usually going well here.When the Saudi's are sad that there brothers are being persecuted in another sister country, the gvernment is sad they might lose oil.Which has always and will always be an issue, but thats an issue that has already been explained, and is neither here nor there.
The point here is that regulating the industry in the economic state that we currently find ourselves in, would be futile. It would cost more than it would save.Although after time it would balance itself, maybe by the time our kids are flying, it would be too hard to start now-as airlines are already flying what routes they want to fly.Southwest would have a heart attack if Obama said they could no longer fly MDW-LAX and that instead American could qualify-Southwest would go back to the unknown airline they were in the beginning.Same with every other airline.The appeals to congress would be plentiful, and the lines of airline execs to the white house would stretch from Washington DC to Manhattan.
The easiest part would be fare regulation, as most companies are charging around the same price for the same ticket.But that is about it-Sorry Guys. We can still fight for it, but dont expect anything great for us.For our kids-yes.For us-no.
Regulation-The candy is on the table
De-regulation-The candy is in a mexican puppet held in the air and evryone is trying to crack it open, to get some Jolly Ranchers.
Gettin that Pinata patched up after being hit repeatedly for the last 25 years would be hard.
03-07-2009, 03:53 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by BringDaFunk
No comments?
So instead of dealing with out-dated, cash-hungry, selfish, uncaring Airline Managers, we will be dealing with corrupt, power-hungry, money-hungry, uncaring bureaucrats.
Airline management only cares about money and security in a constantly changing playing field, whereas Government Officials care about money, campaign-donations, partisan obligations, and power.
I know I'm paraphrasing by generalizing, but I'm looking at worst case scenario and it behooves us all, as pilots, to at least have the people controlling out industry to have some vague interest in what will undoubtably affect us all.
03-07-2009, 04:25 AM
#4
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: The Beginnings
Posts: 1,317
Love it or hate it, re-regulation isn't going to happen.
I find myself wondering if de-facto nationalization might happen under the current powers that be. If the country does slip into a major depression, it might happen.
This would be terrible for the average pilot, and the flying public would be screwed. Likelihood less than 10%, but a couple of years ago, I would have said this would be flat out impossible in my lifetime.
I find myself wondering if de-facto nationalization might happen under the current powers that be. If the country does slip into a major depression, it might happen.
This would be terrible for the average pilot, and the flying public would be screwed. Likelihood less than 10%, but a couple of years ago, I would have said this would be flat out impossible in my lifetime.
03-07-2009, 04:45 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Originally Posted by BringDaFunk
No comments?
However, one thing is for sure, the vast majority of our population can now afford to fly as they could not before. The pay and quality of life for airline employees is now significantly worse. Conclusion, lots of people now fly because the airline industry (employees) subsidize the fares. With the carnage of the industry post regulation I think it's safe to say that the industry can't support the current fares either.
All the airlines continue to struggle with no end in sight.
03-07-2009, 05:38 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by Free Bird
I think it appropriate to have people who actually flew during the regulated era to comment on this. Everything else is mostly speculation.
However, one thing is for sure, the vast majority of our population can now afford to fly as they could not before. The pay and quality of life for airline employees is now significantly worse. Conclusion, lots of people now fly because the airline industry (employees) subsidize the fares. With the carnage of the industry post regulation I think it's safe to say that the industry can't support the current fares either.
All the airlines continue to struggle with no end in sight.
However, one thing is for sure, the vast majority of our population can now afford to fly as they could not before. The pay and quality of life for airline employees is now significantly worse. Conclusion, lots of people now fly because the airline industry (employees) subsidize the fares. With the carnage of the industry post regulation I think it's safe to say that the industry can't support the current fares either.
All the airlines continue to struggle with no end in sight.
I think in an ideal world, a Regulated Airline Industry would seem like a good thing for your average pilot, but we need to focus on the reality that would most probably come out of it. I cannot honestly say that our government would create a fair and equal airline industry if it were to take control. It's the same reason people are fearful of expanding government control of our nation's largest banks and finance institutions. The laws and rules of business, though unfair at times, need to be allowed to play out.
Yes, a regulated industry would mean more job security, but that security would come at the expense of pilot jobs. The government will not allow excessive competition on many routes because the price structures would be controlled. Less competition, equals less business, which equals less jobs anyway you look at it.
Last edited by DeadHead; 03-07-2009 at 03:21 PM.
03-07-2009, 06:42 AM
#8
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Facing forward, punching buttons
Posts: 88
After I nearly choked on my coffee, I almost laughed my ass off. Then I shook my head in dismay. What class on history of airlines did you flunk?
The initial airlines started out as air mail contracts. Eastern Air Transport shortened to Eastern. Trans Continental and Western became TWA. Yes some got shortened.
Peoples Express? Post regulation
Kiwi? It was an INSIDE JOKE because we had our wings "clipped" by Lorenzo
and could not fly. So we started our own
Air Florida? was an INTRASTATE carrier before deregulation
Braniff? Was started by Tom and Paul Braniff in Oklahoma in the late 20's
as Tulsa-Oklahoma Cities Airways and grew throughout the US,
Central and South America
Pan Am? Started by Juan Trippe in Florida
Shall we go on? Jesus, this is freshman aviation history stuff. Along with deregulation and how the industry works. Please, with all due respect, learn about that which you speak before you do. The same with regulation.If you don't understand it, learn it before you pronounce policy theory.
Re-regulation need not be about setting prices for seats. It can be about determining minimum operating rates for equipment types for which an airline must operate. Minimum standards for city service...a whole lot of things that can be looked at to dampen out the ten year airline economic cycle that has existed since deregulation began and the oversight that was required was left in the ditch by Reagan.
To make the arguement that to save jobs, we should allow capacity to grow unfettered only means more jobs at substandard pay rates because there will always be some idiot who can con financiers out of enough money to start up and run for a few years, pay crap wages and charge crap fares. Everyone else will race to match them to stay "competetive" in a losing market, demand concessions and gut agreements. And there will always be someone willing to fly for nothing to build time...not experience...time.
So we can all join in the race to the bottom and make 7-11 wages or stop the madness now.
Again...please...read and understand your history...remember what Santayana...no, NOT Santana...said,
"those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"
or for modern times:
"Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result?
The initial airlines started out as air mail contracts. Eastern Air Transport shortened to Eastern. Trans Continental and Western became TWA. Yes some got shortened.
Peoples Express? Post regulation
Kiwi? It was an INSIDE JOKE because we had our wings "clipped" by Lorenzo
and could not fly. So we started our own
Air Florida? was an INTRASTATE carrier before deregulation
Braniff? Was started by Tom and Paul Braniff in Oklahoma in the late 20's
as Tulsa-Oklahoma Cities Airways and grew throughout the US,
Central and South America
Pan Am? Started by Juan Trippe in Florida
Shall we go on? Jesus, this is freshman aviation history stuff. Along with deregulation and how the industry works. Please, with all due respect, learn about that which you speak before you do. The same with regulation.If you don't understand it, learn it before you pronounce policy theory.
Re-regulation need not be about setting prices for seats. It can be about determining minimum operating rates for equipment types for which an airline must operate. Minimum standards for city service...a whole lot of things that can be looked at to dampen out the ten year airline economic cycle that has existed since deregulation began and the oversight that was required was left in the ditch by Reagan.
To make the arguement that to save jobs, we should allow capacity to grow unfettered only means more jobs at substandard pay rates because there will always be some idiot who can con financiers out of enough money to start up and run for a few years, pay crap wages and charge crap fares. Everyone else will race to match them to stay "competetive" in a losing market, demand concessions and gut agreements. And there will always be someone willing to fly for nothing to build time...not experience...time.
So we can all join in the race to the bottom and make 7-11 wages or stop the madness now.
Again...please...read and understand your history...remember what Santayana...no, NOT Santana...said,
"those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"
or for modern times:
"Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result?
03-07-2009, 07:02 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by 1515greenlight
After I nearly choked on my coffee, I almost laughed my ass off. Then I shook my head in dismay. What class on history of airlines did you flunk?
The initial airlines started out as air mail contracts. Eastern Air Transport shortened to Eastern. Trans Continental and Western became TWA. Yes some got shortened.
Peoples Express? Post regulation
Kiwi? It was an INSIDE JOKE because we had our wings "clipped" by Lorenzo
and could not fly. So we started our own
Air Florida? was an INTRASTATE carrier before deregulation
Braniff? Was started by Tom and Paul Braniff in Oklahoma in the late 20's
as Tulsa-Oklahoma Cities Airways and grew throughout the US,
Central and South America
Pan Am? Started by Juan Trippe in Florida
Shall we go on? Jesus, this is freshman aviation history stuff. Along with deregulation and how the industry works. Please, with all due respect, learn about that which you speak before you do. The same with regulation.If you don't understand it, learn it before you pronounce policy theory.
Re-regulation need not be about setting prices for seats. It can be about determining minimum operating rates for equipment types for which an airline must operate. Minimum standards for city service...a whole lot of things that can be looked at to dampen out the ten year airline economic cycle that has existed since deregulation began and the oversight that was required was left in the ditch by Reagan.
To make the arguement that to save jobs, we should allow capacity to grow unfettered only means more jobs at substandard pay rates because there will always be some idiot who can con financiers out of enough money to start up and run for a few years, pay crap wages and charge crap fares. Everyone else will race to match them to stay "competetive" in a losing market, demand concessions and gut agreements. And there will always be someone willing to fly for nothing to build time...not experience...time.
So we can all join in the race to the bottom and make 7-11 wages or stop the madness now.
Again...please...read and understand your history...remember what Santayana...no, NOT Santana...said,
"those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"
or for modern times:
"Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result?
The initial airlines started out as air mail contracts. Eastern Air Transport shortened to Eastern. Trans Continental and Western became TWA. Yes some got shortened.
Peoples Express? Post regulation
Kiwi? It was an INSIDE JOKE because we had our wings "clipped" by Lorenzo
and could not fly. So we started our own
Air Florida? was an INTRASTATE carrier before deregulation
Braniff? Was started by Tom and Paul Braniff in Oklahoma in the late 20's
as Tulsa-Oklahoma Cities Airways and grew throughout the US,
Central and South America
Pan Am? Started by Juan Trippe in Florida
Shall we go on? Jesus, this is freshman aviation history stuff. Along with deregulation and how the industry works. Please, with all due respect, learn about that which you speak before you do. The same with regulation.If you don't understand it, learn it before you pronounce policy theory.
Re-regulation need not be about setting prices for seats. It can be about determining minimum operating rates for equipment types for which an airline must operate. Minimum standards for city service...a whole lot of things that can be looked at to dampen out the ten year airline economic cycle that has existed since deregulation began and the oversight that was required was left in the ditch by Reagan.
To make the arguement that to save jobs, we should allow capacity to grow unfettered only means more jobs at substandard pay rates because there will always be some idiot who can con financiers out of enough money to start up and run for a few years, pay crap wages and charge crap fares. Everyone else will race to match them to stay "competetive" in a losing market, demand concessions and gut agreements. And there will always be someone willing to fly for nothing to build time...not experience...time.
So we can all join in the race to the bottom and make 7-11 wages or stop the madness now.
Again...please...read and understand your history...remember what Santayana...no, NOT Santana...said,
"those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"
or for modern times:
"Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result?
I was thinking 1968 as opposed to 1978, should have checked that out before posting, thanks for taking it easy on my ego.
Found the boldfaced part of your post interesting because that appears to be the system we live in today. Not pointing out the obvious, just agreeing with your observation of the current state of this industry. Like it or not that is the system we're in. I don't think the system is ideal, but I'm not sure that Government Regulation would "fix" it. I think "fix" is the key term here because different pilots have different opinions an what needs to be fixed.
Let's clear this up, 1515, I'm not trying to preach policy, if I stated policy then let me know and I''l be happy to retract that post. I don't pretend to state policy, I'm mentioning observations in this industry as I see it. Regulating the Airlines will cause the industry to shrink/contract, if you disagree with me on that one, then please say so, but that's how I see it playing out.
Without exposing any more of my historical inadequacies, my point is how many pilots would support a regulated airline industry if that meant they would be out of a job?
Not trying to prove anyone right or wrong in this hypothetical regulatory experiment, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, that's all.
Last edited by DeadHead; 03-07-2009 at 07:22 AM.
03-07-2009, 10:42 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Stage Left
Posts: 366
Originally Posted by DeadHead
Without exposing any more of my historical inadequacies, my point is how many pilots would support a regulated airline industry if that meant they would be out of a job?
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