About as hollow as
 

those kids sneaking into the liquor cabinet, getting plowed and killing a family of 4 when they take your car out for a drunken joyride? Are you that narrow minded? Guns are regulated 1000 times more than the liquor that you gave a pass on above. Correspondingly, the death rate by liquor, driving drunk, cirhossis, etc, is much higher than death by firearms. See any parallel? you have the hollow argument. Criminals cannot buy guns, yet they have them. Any ideas? Any suggestions? Or just "hollow arguments"?

I guess you had a really tough time reading what I wrote, so I'll write it r-e-a-l slowly for you. I WROTE that you don't see kids going into their parents liquor cabinets and blowing people away with liquor. Buying or giving liquor to someone under 21 is ILLEGAL, same as driving while drinking........once again ILLEGAL, so how that is giving a pass on liquor I'll never know. Guns are regulated, but that sure isn't keeping criminals from STILL buying them. A LOT of them are slipping through the cracks. Kids getting liquor from stores while under 21 is a lot more "regulated"......in fact, the store can be fined and shut down if found in violation. Nothing to do with the FFDO program, but fun sparring about nonetheless.

And I'll type reaaaaalllly slow
 

for you too. Actually, we do see kids going into their parents liquor cabinets and blowing people away.... With the cars they drive later that night....What is your solution? Who said anything about only under 21 year olds being the only drunk drivers? SLow enough? So, are the parents responsible for the kids taking liquor out of the cabinet? It is illegal, in your words. Again, more are killed by drunk driving than guns, yet you focus your myopic vision on getting guns off the streets. Liquor slips through the cracks. And kills.. Where is your outrage? So, in your brilliant mind, please... Humble me with your solution... Is it removing the 2nd amendment? Taking guns away from law abiding citizens? Please, do tell.... You seem to have the rebuttals... Now come up with the answers.... What would you need to make you happy? All guns gone? Like in England? Where violent crime still occurs with ILLEGAL guns? Like In Australia? Where confiscation happened and crime shot up? Please, oh wise sage and s-l-o-w typist, let me know.

[quote=newKnow;584749]What I think doesn't matter . . . not if we're a nation of laws, and not of men. The Supreme Court definitively squashed this interpretation of the Second Amendment in the recent Columbia v. Heller in 2008. According to them, the right to bear firearms is a personal and individual right. Period.

I won't bore you with the details; if you'd like to discuss restrictions that may be placed on the 2nd amendment, that's fine. No rights, even those that are constitutionally protected, are absolute.

If you truly believe that free citizens in this country should not have the personal right to bear arms, there is a legislative remedy. The Second Amendment, like all amendments, is subject to repeal or modification. It's happened before to other amendments, and can happen again.

[quote=Droog;584720]If you're interested in a serious discussion, I'd be more than happy to engage. If you're interested in spouting hyperbolic, sarcastic invective (which seems to be the case), you're on your own.

Deltabound,

You don't have to bore me with the details of The District of Columbia vs. Heller. I've already taken that class and passed the final.

But, since you seem to enjoy the subject just as much as I do, I welcome the discussion.

D.C. vs. Heller held the D.C. ban on keeping handguns in the home and keeping other firearms in the home disassembled, to be unconstitutional.

While they did say it was part of the natural right of self defense, they hardly said that it was absolute and there was no "period."

In dicta, they alluded to the fact that states can regulate arms, but did not stipulate the level of scrutiny the States reason for the restriction should undergo. This is just the tip of the iceberg that is called the 2nd Amendment and you can see from the opinion that it is complicated.

Is that they way you understand it?

This is fun, isn't it?

New K Now

Also, I don't think that free citizens of this country should not have the right to keep and bear arms. All I have ever said is that it is complicated. :rolleyes:

Take your favorite gun with you. It is called conceled carry and legal in states that regonize the police don't follow you around looking to protect you.

I guess you live in nj or ny. When you get a gun pointed at you in the street don't be complaining to the police. I'm sorry you live there you need to be armed or hide in the nice neighborhoods.

I can tell you I would not hesitate a second to protect my family or myself.

Pure B.S. over 40 states have concealed carry laws and this is not happening!!

Is it possible to admit that in some places and situations gun regulation is necessary and in some places it is bad and not necessary.

newKnow . . .
 

. . . it is only possible to admit such a social concept if you are rational, educated, and not willing to be a slave to one's visceral instincts.

What's BS? I said that many wouldn't have a problem if ALL the "law abiding" folks were carrying......... and that's BS? I know for a FACT that a couple of pilots who were/are packing have been through anger management courses (some more than once). And these were/are "legally" packing. How good does that make you feel? Go ahead and tick them off and see how happy you are to see them packing. Yeah, I want folks like that around me.........NOT.:eek:

Nope, not even close. You couldn't pay me to live in NJ or NY. I've been in law enforcement too......so I do know a few things.

Only gun control I agree with.....

at least high school diploma.

No what is B.S. is the rest of your story.

I.E. This
The first time someone feels "threatened", they'd pop the other guy off. Then it's going to be "who's got better and bigger firepower", who's faster on the draw, who's aim is better, etc. We'll be setting ourselves up for quite a show. Hopefully I'm not there to enjoy it. I guess we should all be going out and buying Tasers next.

Apparently those are triats that are difficult to find on this thread... :rolleyes:

This says it better than I ever could. Are you a Sheep or Sheepdog? :cool:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Part II..............................



Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

[quote=deltabound;584909]
I actually have no desire to debate the nuances of the 2nd amendment with anyone. I understand that most of the folks on this site are pro gun- ownership, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to convert anybody (that would be like trying to beat back the ocean with a hammer). I was trying to make 2 points, which I will try to summarize in a non-sarcastic manner. First of all, I believe that it is dishonest to use the 2nd amendment as justification for gun ownership (just admit that you think that they're fun and/or you feel protected by them). And the second point is that for MANY people, guns are a FALSE sense of security (see my second post in this thread for further clarification).

Deleted........................

Um, ok. For your sake, I hope that you're right!

And I hope for your sake an armed criminal never makes it into your home some night.
Dude, since you don't own guns, your "rules of thumb" on gun ownership are like one of my passengers trying to give me advice on how to handle an emergency. Yeah, some people may freeze in a crisis, and some won't, some will hit what they aim at, some will miss...but having a gun in hand when needed is infinitely superior to the gun still sitting under glass in a store (or worse yet, legislated into confiscation).
It's dishonest to expect our Constitutional rights to be protected? GMAB!
A day at the range can be a lot of fun...sorry you don't understand. But I have never felt protected BY a gun, I protect myself and my family WITH my training and WITH the firearms I own.
OK, maybe like for some people driving a big car is a false sense of security and/or power. Like some people FEEL more powerful/invulnerable when they drink.

Droog (and a few others), no doubt you've already made up your mind(s) in the matter. Fine. I ain't gonna change your mind ad you ain't gonna change mine. Slice's excerpt from "On Killing" is right on the money and I have no doubt HIFLYR will defend his and his own if necessary...just as I will, no question about it. It really is that simple.

Don't like guns? Fine, don't buy one. Bottom line is gun control has never been proven to make a society safer, and I'd say there is really plenty of evidence to the contrary.
or Droog;) Sorry, couldn't resist.

The thing that is most frustrating for those of us who are anti-gun (besides 2nd Amendment interpretation) is that we are forced to hope that the citizens who choose to carry a gun (conceal permit or FFDO or whatever) act responsibly, assess threat correctly and don't act out of selfish need.

Baa......................

kinda like getting on the freeway at rush hour (I paraphrased your quote to make my point). Welcome to society, you cannot create a eutopia via legislation.

I second Slice's "Baaaa" to you

I know of at least two guys that have gotten the rejection email in the last two days. Sounds like the TSA is cutting back.

Obama Still Looking to Kill the FFDO Program?

No,

He's more likely to tax it into submission...

to people that don't like guns
 

To all the people that don't own or believe in ownership of firearms, You need to put up a sign in your front yard that says "we want to be safe, this is a gun free house" Until you do that you are just leaching off the security that gun owners with training like myself provided with omni presence. In other words the criminals don't know which house has guns and which ones do not.
So put out a sign and stop living in my shadow!

Ok, "Dale Gribble!"http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...ons/icon12.gif

"Gun control means using both hands..." (Clint Eastwood)
:)

Droog, like I said, I don't expect to change your mind and you will not change mine on this subject. Yep, I'm an arrogant, paranoid, delusional, novice. You've got it all figured out. See ya.

BTW-A little constructive criticism on posting: Your rebuttal to my previous post gets lost in the formatting (hard to distinguish between your text and mine...try and different font, color, or something).

That's good advice. I know that the post was hard to read, and I do apologize for that. I've always been horrible with computers. Also, I was typing that post under stressful, high-pressure conditions (I was under attack by my family!).http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...ons/icon12.gif

It is real selfish to protect oneself and their family. Just remember when you get car jacked, held-up, or raped. Just remember by doing nothing you will embolded that person to do it again and again. Carrying a weapon is a huge responsiblity. So is flying an airplane with people in the back. Lawful conceled carry people know this, the unlawful don't.

That's a great idea, Pantera. Thanks for protecting everyone. You are the greatest. :rolleyes:

A couple friends of mine were mugged @ gunpoint while out on the town. I'd honestly believe that had any of them been carrying a weapon, it would have done nothing to protect them, had it been in one of the purses of the ladies, it would have simply been another firearm in the possession of a criminal. Another friend was nearly carjacked, she didn't have a gun, and the perp didn't have one either (that was visible at least) had she had a gun, she might have "protected" herself from the dude, by opening the glovebox, and putting a .45 round through his chest, instead, she drove off when he opened the door.

I'm sure in some way, having a firearm can provide protection. Maybe if you see the mugger, and attempt to intervene, same time, who's to say that the situation that might have deescalated, may instead end up with a couple people dead on the street? Also, for home protection, do people keep their weapons on them at all times? One friend of mine is pretty handy at getting to a shotgun if you don't knock on his door before entering, but if the pistol is in the nightstand, and you're watching 30Rock in the basement, that pistola isn't going to do a lot of determent in my opinion.

Actually, that's wise advice.

Non sequitur. The simple fact that one owns a gun does not make one any more qualified to know rules of thumb than a non gun owner. I educated myself and got lots of range time long before purchasing my first gun. Not to elevate myself but, I am sure that preparation put me ahead of the curve...even compared to many gun owners that don't bother to undergo formal training.

Not necessarily. I don't know the exact statistics but, the likelihood that a gun owner will have his own gun used against him in such a situation is higher than most gun zealots care to admit. (btw; I'm not calling you a zealot)

Oh? When has such legislation even made it to committee?



Zapata
Non NRA member/Advocate of Rights AND Regulations to Gun Ownership

Wow!:eek: I guess you and all of his friends know to knock!

:eek:I am surrounded by Liberals!:eek: