Sounds to me like we can either start applying some common sense to our personal management of rest and fatigue or wind up with more "solutions" thru regulation. The same regulating that allows 24 hour duty days with double crews on ultra long-haul.

I still don't think this was a fatigue driven event, as much as it was lack of training and inexperience. Either way the Media/Feds/Capitol Hill have gotten a hold of it, and the circus has begun.

There will be something coming out of this.

There is no way they can come up for a regulation for this. Its nearly impossible. Where do you draw the line? A two hour drive? What happens if it is snowing and my 1 hour drive turns into a 3 hour drive? I contend a 1 hour drive to get to work is much more taxiing than a 2 hour jumpseat. They would have to come up with a book thicker than an Encyclopaedia describing the rules. And if they did come up with some scheme and enforced it there would be total chaos, 50% of the work force would have commuting problems.

[quote=ChickenFlight;608685]Airlines benefit from commuters just as much as pilots do. Commuters (such as I) have more motivation to make sure overnight legs do not cancel, to keep on schedule and to get weight restrictions lifted. (Though the last example is more an issue for the regional forum, it makes sense that we might be able to get a few revenue pax on in addition to our fellow commuters. )

Except that pilots, in general, do not have operational control and thus cannot cancel legs. I have seen a few write up certain items in such a colorful language that it could not be MEL'd, and as a result had to either shift to another aircraft (causing a delay), or the cancellation of the leg (from dispatch). However, it was a "slippery slope" because the crew, or parts of, could be reassigned. Sometimes it worked, other times it didnt. Especially when crew scheduling knows it is the last turn of a multi-day pattern.

I have to imagine that some rules might start to develop with the respect to commuting. I was one for almost eight years with a regional carrier. But there is no way in frickin' heck that I would ever move to the base I was at!

When I started this thread, I should have added that I have always subscribed to the "Big Boy" Theory which says we are all Big Boys (and Girls) and ought to be able to police ourselves. I've managed to successfully commute for 12 years and try to practice safe commuting, coming down the night before when necessary, keeping a crash pad, etc. I think you should punish the few who don't practice safe commuting, not regulate the many who do.

However, we all know that the FAA is famous for their tombstone mentality in that they move at a glacial pace until prompted by passenger deaths. Add in a good old public uproar, and some pressure from the New York Senate delegation and there's no telling what they will do. Unfortunately, the public will latch on to the most sensationalistic aspects that may or may not have anything to do with this accident. For right or wrong, the ones that have sparked the most media/public furor have been sterile cockpit 'chattiness' and crewmembers who commute on redeyes and sleep in crewrooms.

You can bet that the next Fed on your jumpseat will take a keen interest in Sterile cockpit procedures.....and if I'm correct, Colgan already broached the idea of pulling random CVRs to monitor for the same thing (something that should cause the full wrath of ALPA). I'm just hoping they don't come up with some equally ridiculous 'fix' for commuting.

Very naive on your part Sir. There are an endless number of "ways" they can come up with. You may not like their solution but I ask you, do they care?

And to that end, I give you one of the FAA's answers to pilot fatigue...."Protected Rest".

There you had one management pilot's attempt to land an airplane in an extremely violent weather situation, and the FAA's focus was on how fatigued they were.

Everyone that wants to comment on this accident should read the CVR that is available for public viewing. From cruise flight until intercepting the localizer there was so much mindless chatter. Very little of which was concerned with the weather conditions that they were in. A direct violation of the sterile cockpit rule below 10,000 feet.

Reading that transcript one does not get the feeling that this was a fatigued crew. This will be an interesting investigation and will cover all aspects of Colgan's operation from training, checking and adequate crew rest for their flight crews

Is it too damn difficult for the FAA to cut back on the duty times and increase the rest requirements... Ooops I forgot the airlines would have a **it fit. That would make scheduling a nightmare.

I really hope things change sad that people had to die but its about time for management to kick a nice carpet dance. I just went to colgan website and they are doing their absolute best to stay out in front of this rock slide but the boulders are just comming to hard and fast. The fact of the matter is for the indstry, cal, and colgan the chickens are comming home to rootse.

Lets see, wake up at 4am, 2am on my body clock. Not uncommon at the "regionals" these days whose flying consists of flying in the region of the entire United States. Anyway, wake up at 4 am, fly 2 hours, sit for four hours after flying that 2, then fly 3 hours, sit 2 hours, then fly 1 hour to an 8 1/2 hour sit (overnight) at a hotel, repeat.

I'm not talking about day 1 of a trip with a commute in on that day, I'm talking about days 2 and 3 of many "regional" type 4 day trips.

When the commuter train crashed in California didn't the ntsb say it was fatigue even though the engineer was sending text messages up until seconds before the crash, and the first thing they did was drop the duty time for train crews?

ALPA actually asked about this to the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute rep for the FAA. ALPA was asking 'would appropriately timed conversation (above 10K) help reduce fatigue'?

The answer was 'yes'. As the NTSB pointed out too, many people use conversation to stay awake in cars, and pilots should consider it as well as a fatigue mitigation strategy, provided it doesn't detract from their duties. However, as I write this, NASA is testifying that 'conversation usually requires attention, thus detracting from situational awareness'. So, consider talk to reduce fatigue, but not enough to detract from situational awareness.

It should be noted that the direct physical events that caused this accident (retardation of the throttle, flap extension, gear extension, prop pitch change, shaker, control column movement, partial throttle increase, pusher, rudder pedal movement, flap retraction) did not occur in the midst of conversation.

Yes, but the accident FO awoke in the morning in SEA, then started her commute that evening (or that was my understanding from the testimony in front of the NTSB hearing yesterday). The NTSB and FAA believe she had over 36 hours since her last full sleep. She slept on her SEA-MEM leg, as well as in MEM. How well was she rested @ the time of the accident? We'll never know for sure.

Her schedule was likely more fatiguing than any regional schedule (even the worst ones are not a 36 hour duty day).

The problem is the public doesn't hear about the majority of commuters, but only about this one, which was abnormal. The public only knows the most sensational aspects of reality.

I would opine the problem is much more broad in nature. All these events are merely symptoms of the problem. In short, the airline business model is broke - plain and simple. The companies simply cannot make money on a long-term sustained basis unless of course you are a fuel-hedge brokering airline and that is more of a credit to fuel hedging not the airline model. As a result airline management (notice I didn't write leadership) does everything it can to bust into labor which in many cases ultimately includes safety whether they want to admit it or not. Meanwhile, same management has no problem robbing the corporate coffers to ingratiate themselves and their grandchildren. So what is the solution? Re-regulate the airlines. They are nothing more than a utility anyway with one exception -- utilities make money.

I agree 100% corporate greed and union greed have ruined this industry, it's time for the government to step in.

You want the airlines run like the Post Office? :eek:

Oh wait...:D

No Block, You're BROKE, the airline business model is broken!:D Couldn't resist that one!

Yes, good point - broke and broken. :)

How is the government going to fix this?

You missed the point. Lots of pilots go a FULL 4 day trip without getting a "full" sleep cycle. Regardless of whether they commuted in or not. I know on nights 1 and 2, or 2 and 3, or whatever combination, I've had less then 6 hours of sleep on BOTH nights. I don't know what you consider a "full" sleep cycle.

I don't consider that "full".

Great Post. This is so true.

The FAA discussed this @ the hearing yesterday afternoon. The FAA' Civil Aerospace Medical Institute research shows that going over 17 hours between a full sleep (defined as 4-5 full sleep cycles consisting of the 5 stages of sleep) leads to rapid deterioration of skills. Most people require 7-8 hours to attain a full sleep, thus why the FAA recommends a minimum 10 hour rest, allowing for 2 hours to be spent in non-sleep activity. Sadly, the FAR's do not reflect this.

And more's the pity. The FAA knows there's a problem with the regs. The NTSB has been trying for years to get this changed. ALPA has pushed as hard as they can.

Yet the rules stay the same, and unscrupulous carriers may follow the law while simultaneously building schedules that are inherently fatiguing.

Although it must be said, that does not seem to be the case in this accident, however.

Well maybe the the new head of the FAA will actually change this.

acl what happened to your avatar?

Well, that brings us full circle to what I getting at that you tried to deflect.

Sorry, but regional schedules can be just as fatiguing, as well as contain just as much circadian disruption as the pilot that commuted in for this trip. I'm talking about while being on the trip, not before the trip even began. Again, it's the same.

Funny, I've gone coast to coast being a "regional" pilot with an intermediate stop that contained lots of sit time, then followed by a reduced rest overnight. Doesn't matter which direction, they both suck. I've also done regular flying combined with back side of the clock "red eye" flying in the same pairing.

IT DOESN'T MATTER. You could start a trip being rested, but be in the same fatigue state as this pilot as early as day 2 of trip, let alone days 3 and 4.

I've been seeing more 2day back to backs and 3 on 3 off trips crop up. More of these kind of trips reduce hotel cost and discourage commuting.

This is going to sound pretty cold, but I hope the industry in general, as well as the FAA, gets a bunch of bad press over this.

Let's be honest:

There is a significant difference in qualifications, training, experience, etc between the major carriers and the (especially the smaller) regionals. Similarly there is a big difference in compensation and benefits.

Passengers think pilots are pilots and they expect all to be well qualified. From what I've read the flight crew was not well trained, not particularly experienced, and not very disciplined; a recipe for disaster. Add in the fatigue issue and it gets worse.

I suspect the personal injury lawyers are licking their chops at the upcoming lawsuits.

If the lawyers are successful at getting a healthy judgement against Continental (code share partner) perhaps the majors will start to carefully evaluate just who does their contract flying and what their qualifications and experience level minimums should be.

That might (hopefully) raise the bar in terms of compensation as well. You can't attract the best and the brightest at the wages that the regionals are paying.

Either Ameriflot or Airtrak.

the real story in all of this should be about the major airlines OUTSOURCING flying to the lowest bidders essentially outsourcing safety. Passengers buy a ticket on DAL, CAL, UAL, etc and they expect to be flown by that airline. Then they show up and fly on XYZ airline. If the media would get that into the story passengers would really be irritated. EWR-BUF used to be flown by CAL on dc9s and 737's and now are flown by Colgan which has shotty mx, training, and pay.

I just wish the media would get onto that subject. Outsourcing safety to the lowest bidder.

My old regional had a good training department which increased the cost of doing business and guess what happened? Continental said You guys are too expensive we're bringing Colgan in to fly for us.... :cool:

Instead of competing on cost, airlines compete on service. This includes hiring higher quality employees to provide that service.

That's like being in Poland during WWII and saying this: "The best way to deal with the Germans is to bring in the Russians. That will make life much better!"