I know this and I wish I could find the post that someone had put on another thread and damned if I can find it ,but it was in regards to FAA mins.
Forgot to take my memory pilll today :D.

Fred

This is not true...... Not all airlines are held to the same training standards. There are huge differences in the way and quality of training different airlines perform. What they are held to is the same standards for checking.

FWIW and to the best of my recollection,

Regional Checkride. At XJT prior to 2001, training consisted of 3-5 sims and then a sim ride and then 2-3 aircraft events (includes the E145) and then a sim ride. Everything depended on how much sim time was available to the company to use. At one point an E145 was pulled off line and dedicated to pilot training. Eventually when all of the props were parked they went to all Level D E145 sims and you got I think 7 sims and a checkride.

Now at least prior to 2006 all of the sim rides were: first flight checks with easter eggs, engine start with abnormality, taxi, one abnormality during taxi, low vis takeoff, 2 180 degree 45 bank steep turns if you did one perfect the other was waived, all 3 approach to stalls and recoveries but I think if the first was within +/- 100' the other two were waived, non-precision to either a missed or balked landing and then the published missed and one turn in holding, then a hand flown ILS to a landing. Or reverse that and do the ILS to a missed and then a non-precision. Then V1 cut, single engine ILS to either a landing or missed depending on what you did before. Then windshear and no flap visual. I used to get fires on the V1 cut but they eventually stopped. No slewing and thats either 2 or 2.5 hours. Luckily it was all in IAH which has simple missed after they got rid of the 3 to 5 required level offs on every approach.

After 2004 or so once you passed the checkride you did a preparatory LOFT session just to get pilots used to doing an actual flight, it was non jeopardy but you could fail it.

The Glory Days. Back around 1999 we had pay for training. $10K for ATR/120 and $7K or $8K for the 1900D. You were not paid, reimbursed for hotels, per diem, etc until you completed your checkride. Now, back then I remember hearing that you could not fail the ride, if you did you lost the job and all but like half or $3K of the training cost. Later when I was around you could fail one ride but were let go if you fail twice. It seems like once regionals started paying for training then they were less reluctant to fire you for failing and they eventually got to where you could redo a single unsat maneuver but any more unsats or if time ran out then it was a failure. Now, these were never pink slips, just failures. I am curious if now with new hires getting SIC types if a failure is a pink slip?

My Major airline uses the AQP system and initial training has 4 series of events. The first or 100 series is 4 low level FTDs or system trainers and a progress check and then the computer oral. The next is the 200 series with 4 real FTDs with a lot of approaches and CAT II/III stuff and then a progress check.

Then the next is the 300 series which has 4 real sims and a maneuvers checkride that starts at the runway and does all of the following at some point, normal takeoff, V1 cut, RTO, visual, non-precision, engine out precision, missed approach, landing, landing engine-out, landing no flap and a takeoff and then approach windshear encounter. One of the approaches has to be hand flown. I do not believe this is a pink slip event unless you're an FO going for a PIC type then you can pink slip on the left seat maneuvers which are an RTO, taxi and visual approach. I could be wrong about the rest not being jeopardy though.

The last series is the 400 which has 4 sim sessions and a checkride (actually your type ride) and all of the events are line oriented operations. The loft is the jeopardy event, its real time gate to gate and it'll have one of any 8 events with any [U]one[U] of 20+ MELs. All selected by the computer. So life sucks if you get the one where you have to wear your mask and autothrottles are on MEL.

ATP Standards are the same for the regionals, majors or an ALL ATPs Seminole driver on one of those two day crash courses. Here is a run down: http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGADVISORYCIRCULAR.NSF/0/370f8d9f69094b8d86256a1c00709d5c/$FILE/faa-s-8081-5d.pdf

Thanks for clearing that up .
Jet lag does'nt get any easier when one get's older :D.
I schould wait 2 days before I post lol.


Fred

Fred,

I find the same thing..... :D

For a minute there I thought I was in the minority.:cool:

Fred

Where was all this talk in the 1960's?? I know AT LEAST a dozen retired UAL pilots who all got hired at UAL in the 1960's with well under 300 hours, including my dad who had 142 hours.

Something has changed, and obviously not for the better.

My dad
 

My dad was offered a job with American Airlines and he only had a private pilots license.

Skyhigh

Semantics. Results are the same. Same goes for any job. Ours happens to be much more fun than being a office worker.

...and that right there sums up why our profession will always be viewed by some people as nothing more than a (marginally) paid hobby.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy what I do very much as few things beat the view out our office windows, and life is far too short for one to be miserable in their occupation (something few airline pilots who chronically complain seem to realize), but "fun" doesn't pay my (or your) mortgage.

This is the other half of the story that (as of yet) the media has yet to report. There are plenty of of very experienced pilots out there right now (U.S. Citizens that is) - but many have gone overseas to work. Why? Because the pay and conditions are so abysmally bad at many carriers here! Without even trying I can think of at least 20 people I know who've gone to overseas carriers - and I'm not talking inexperienced people. I'm talking about guys with 10,000+ hours, years of 121 PIC, heavy jet experience, ect. Hwy are they going to places like China, India, and Nigeria? Because it's not worth working at the regionals. I can think of a whole other bunch who are collecting unemployment right now (just like HalinTexas) rather than work for a regional. The media needs to get their teeth into the other side of this story and bring it to light.

Back to more on topic - I agree with a minimum of an ATP to be a crewmember on a 121 carrier. I'd add to that a minimum of two years 121 experience before being able to upgrade to Captain (not necessarily at that carrier). I certainly wouldn't fix everything, but it would force people to have more "real" experience before being either PIC or SIC of an airliner.

And to the original question - Do whatever it takes. Looking back and myself and friends, we busted our butts to fly anything and everything we could in college - be it CFI'ing, delivering aircraft, making connections and flying right seat in a corporate turboprop, whatever. It took me 10 years to go from first flight to right seat of a Part 135 jet (with my ATP at that point). Along the way I made a lot of decisions and gained a lot of experience. I simply don't believe that happens when you are rushed through training, into the right seat of a 121, and then a quick upgrade. Does that need to take 10 years? Certainly not, but I believe a five year path to the right seat would produce a pilot who is more well rounded (note - I'm referring to a all civilian path here. The military and their training represent an entirely different paradigm, but that is an entirely different discussion).

There is a push for more experience from new pilots but no way to build experience. The path from doing civilian training to atp mins doesn't exist in this stagnant industry, in time things will probably begin to balance out, but you are still going to have a group of pilots that the airlines are going to eventually need that aren't experienced enough for the job.

Experienced pilots
 

Well from my calculations there are around 150,000 commercial pilots who are of working age and have let their medicals go. If wages were increased and working conditions relaxed experienced pilots by the thousands would materialize out of the wood work.

Skyhigh