So if we're talking "extreme" situations, would you rather see everyone with an ATP hired and the airlines scrambling to find pilots and raising pay, QOL, etc. to attract them? Or would you rather see airlines filled with 300 hour wonders no matter what because they are so desperate for pilots? As the hours go lower so does the AVERAGE valuable experience. And don't start inventing situations here. I just know the next argument will be along the lines of: "Well, the pilot shortage would only get to the point where only the truly qualified people would be hired because there would be enough at that point to satisfy the numbers required.":rolleyes:

The problem is, those established regionals become too costly, thus the stagnation you speak of. In swoops the upstart regional, underbids the established regional, and gets awarded flying from mainline.

The upstart regional fleet doubles in size faster than they can hire pilots, but pay is not a problem because "who cares what the FO makes, I'll be Captain in a year!"

As soon as the 600-hour wunder-FO has ATP mins he's off to the left seat without ever deicing or painting an imbedded line of weather. And who does this newly-minted, 1500-hour Captain have to watch his back? Another 600-hour wunderkind just off IOE and ready to serve his year in the right seat, hoping the captain gets his 1000 TurbinePIC and moves on so he can have his shot too.

In theory, when things turn around these guys may go to the majors in droves, having seen icing a half dozen times and still knowing very little other that they kept each other alive for two years.

On the other hand, the 7,000 hour FO from the stagnant regional won't get an interview because he lacks 1000TPIC and leaves the airlines to fly for NetJets or whatever, taking his 8 years of airline experience with him.

What I found interesting in the Colgan transcript is the FO stating that she didn't want to upgrade until she had flown a winter in the right seat, so she would have experience in all types of weather. Her new-hire chums wanted to upgrade now, but she wasn't comfortable with that.

She sounded like she wanted to expand her envelope at a comfortable pace, but wound up on the ground anyway. I wonder if her "take it slow, learn a while" mindset is the norm at many regionals these days.

I'd take a hard look at how much "overlap" really exists between experienced CAs and new FOs at some of the regionals who have enjoyed explosive growth in recent years.

I never said there was a pilot shortage, I said applicant shortage. Read and comprehend before you quote someone and jump up and down about something I agree with you on.

I don't know what you are talking about, I never said any of those things. You and the guy above have me confused with someone who said there is a pilot shortage. An applicant shortage and a pilot shortage are two entirely different things. If you'd have read my posts I also said both crew members should be typed at initial which would require an ATP.

Find me a CEO who has negotiated a union contract for wages and benefits and has budgeted the next 4 years of business based on pay scales and work rules that is suddenly going to do anything with real serious value to attract new applicants. He's going to go to the government and plead his case and have a lobbyist get the hiring minimums reduced.

My opposing view was that airlines are going to be hiring flight instructors with ATP mins and 1500 hours of 172 time getting hired. Meanwhile the 1000 hour pilot who stuck their neck out, did the leg work, found the freight job and was willing to break their backs for the last 500 hours of multi/imc/maybe even turbine that are are going to get passed up for "Mr Gold Seal". I think that person is much more experienced then the cfi for this kind of flying. And I am not just trumping up a situation. How the hell did this become an attack on me????

I found that both interesting and sad as well. Here was someone that wanted and I think respected the idea of actually having experienced these things before taking command of the aircraft.

I also find it sad how she is being attacked in the media. From the time the captain made a bad situation worse I think I counted 30 seconds until (Thump) most of you would agree it was beyond saving about 10-15 seconds into the stall. How many of you would call my controls with the nose 45 degrees down in a 100 degree bank 200 feet off the ground. To sit quietly behind your computer and watch 10 seconds count off the clock seems like forever. Now throw in alarms, shakers, pushers, call outs and panic. Goes by pretty quick.

Coffee induced idea
 

Call me crazy but here's an idea , ATP mins schould be 1000 hours of turbine time.
So you would have a comm lic and then when one reaches the magic number of 1000 in turbine time you go get an ATP .It also would be a way to raise standards and possibly result in higher pay
Is this idea too far fetched?


Fred

I think you can partially fix this by raising the requirements to act as a Part 121 Captain beyond just having an ATP. When you take the quick upgrade away, it would force the airlines to improve wages and work rules to attract and retain pilots. In essence, it would help level the playing field by reducing the cost advantages an upstart or bottom feeding regional may have.

Not every regional allows 1500TT pilots to become Part 121 PICs and thus they hire Street Captains. I believe Mesaba, Colgan and Chautauqua did this at some point in the last few years, Colgan I believe was most recent. This is a guess but I don't think its necessarily a "we're being extra safe" but more like insurance won't cover us. Dent a few airplanes and you'll see an airline react pretty quick as insurance becomes an issue. Maybe someone with a plethora of insurance experience that posts a good bit around here might know more or if I'm guessing right.

Anyways, Street Captains are hired at the bottom of the seniority list but they're PICs. FO's currently on the list will once they upgrade be senior Captains to them. Not exactly wise or necessarily the safest thing to do but if you need some PIC time it doesn't hurt to jump ship from a stagnant large regional to Dash 8-400 CA at Colgan to help get the magic 1000TPIC. If you increase CA minimums you'll increase the probability of Street Captains and thus I think you have to automatically also require a minimum amount of SIC time at said airline prior to upgrade to the PIC position you were hired into.

But again, not the wisest or safest idea to go from 0 to CA at any airline. I flew with a Comair CA turned Continental FO turned flowback CA at XJT and he said it sucked being "hired" to be in charge of an airplane at an airline operation you never have seen before.

As far as I am concerned, increase scope before you create minimum hour requirements for any position. It'll solve most of the issues and achieve most of the objectives without creating more problems. But if you want to do something industry wide then start with FAA min rest requirements to at least Part 135 mins, 10 hours between flying.

Also, if you want to do something constructive in the name of safety then require the FAA to make training as easy for regional pilots with more sim time, checkrides split into two, etc. as it is for major airline pilots. RJ pilots would welcome it with open arms. I agree with others who posted here, training and strict standardization rules trump experience in the Part 121 world.

Here's a novel idea!
 

How about training that goes beyond the FAA min's?
Have regionals train to the same standards as mainline or is this not practical?


Fred

All 121 airlines, regardless if they fly a 1900 or a 744, are held to the same training standards.

The type and style of training (jeopardy training vs. train-to-proficiency) can affect the overall quality, but the standards are the same.

I believe that if you were to wait until someone had the ATP under their belt you'd still be better off than hiring the 300TT wonder. The odds are better that the person with ATP minimums would have flown more than just 20 hours in a piston twin. They'd have a better chance of having that Part 135 job (the IFR job...not the lowly VFR one).

And then you knock operators such as Cape Air out of business. Creating different levels of the ATP is a consideration.

That 1000 hour pilot probably couldn't get the job flying freight...at least IFR.

There's so many holes in these arguments--because our industry has so much varied flying--that there is no cure all. The closest you can come is to have someone with more time and varied experience in their logbook. If there was a way to train for it in simulators it'd be through the extension of the LOFT periods. Consider having two checkrides: the basic maneuvers, approaches, holding, etc. variety and then, after four or five LOFT periods, a LOFT check. But it won't happen because the industry will scream about the cost.

IMHO, the industry "got what it paid for." Now if the public only knew.

X

Horizon Air
 

Horizon Air use to have a 4500 hour total time minimum before upgrade.

Skyhigh