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Old 06-17-2009, 06:03 PM
  #51  
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A good source for some interesting info. Looks like this is not the 1st time AF has had related problems.

Shortcut to: Crash: Air France A332 over Atlantic on Jun 1st 2009, aircraft impacted ocean
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:41 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by LivingInMEM View Post
I will have to do some research to find it, but I am especially curious when Boeing engineers quit due to the extensive use of composites in the 787 structure as happened a year or 3 ago.
Are you referring to this?

Boeing 787 Dreamliner could be unsafe, report claims

From correspondents in New York
Agence France-Presse
September 19, 2007 11:00am


THE new Boeing 787 Dreamliner, which has been snapped up by airlines including Qantas, is made from a brittle material that could shatter instead of crumple in a crash, a former Boeing engineer says.
BOEING'S new 787 Dreamliner plane may be unsafe and could lead to more deaths in crashes, according to a US report by journalist Dan Rather to be broadcast today.
The plane, which is mostly made from brittle carbon compounds rather than flexible aluminium, is more likely to shatter on impact and may emit poisonous chemicals when ignited, Rather will report. 

The report is based on interviews with a former Boeing engineer and various industry experts, according to a transcript of the show. 

"The problem is all the unknowns that are being introduced and then explained away as if there is no problem," former Boeing engineer Vince Weldon told Rather. 

Mr Weldon described a recent crash in a standard aluminium plane where the dented but intact fuselage kept fire at bay and allowed passengers to leave the plane alive. 

"With a composite airframe, the fuselage would not crumple, it would shatter... that shattered hole would be there for the fire that's going into the airplane," he said.
"Instead of everyone getting out, it would be a far less positive result.''

Mr Weldon said he was fired by Boeing after a 46-year career because of his persistent complaints about the design of the 787.

He claimed to represent the view of others at Boeing who were afraid to speak out.

Boeing, which did not provide officials for on-camera interviews in Rather's report, said Weldon's claims were not valid and the plane would not fly if it was not safe.

"We've looked at Mr Weldon's claims. We've had technical committees review them. We do an exceptional amount of testing," said Lori Gunter, a spokeswoman for Boeing's commercial plane unit.

"Absolutely, these materials are safe. They are tested, they will be certified."

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) must find the 787 to be as crashworthy as aluminium planes, and the plane was doing well in those tests so far, she said.

Ms Gunter declined to comment on the circumstances of Mr Weldon's departure from Boeing.

Boeing's lightweight, fuel-efficient 787 is set for its first test flight between mid-November and mid-December after a three month delay due to a shortage of bolts and problems programming the flight control software.

The first 787 is due to be delivered to Japan's All Nippon Airways in May next year, meaning it will have at most six months of flight tests – much shorter than previous jetliner programs.

Boeing's rival Airbus, owned by European aerospace company EADS, is also working on a composite fuselage for its new A350 jet, but it is some years behind Boeing in the design and production process.

In Rather's report, Mr Weldon and other experts argued that the carbon-composite fuselage would not survive a lightning strike as well as aluminium, would emit toxic fumes when burning, and could easily be damaged without any visible sign.

Mr Weldon said Boeing was misrepresenting to airlines the ease of maintenance on carbon fuselage planes.

The report cited experts referring to Airbus planes that had carbon parts with problems that were not easily visible.

Rather's report also included interviews with aviation experts who saw little or no problem with the 787.

"I'm excited to ride on the 787. I'm excited to fly in composite aircraft," said Joseph Rakow, an engineer at consulting company Exponent, in an interview in the report.

Todd Wissing, a commercial pilot, said he would fly the 787 as long as the composite materials are rigorously tested.

"We put safety as our top priority," he said.

"We use the 21st century inspection methods with these new materials. Then we have complete confidence that we can get in that airplane with our passengers and go fly because that's what we can do."

Rather was a former CBS News anchor but let the station after a scandal over his reporting on US President George W. Bush's military record.

The Dreamliner report is the latest edition of Dan Rather Reports, a series broadcast on subscription-only television station HDNet.
link

Interesting stuff here, includes talk of Airbus and their composite vertical stab and rudder issues with AA in 2001, AirTransat in 2005, and FedEx in 2006.
YouTube of Dan Rather Reports on 787 (1 of 4 parts)
YouTube of Dan Rather Reports on 787 (2 of 4 parts)
YouTube of Dan Rather Reports on 787 (3 of 4 parts)
YouTube of Dan Rather Reports on 787 (4 of 4 parts)

Last edited by Sniper; 06-18-2009 at 07:41 AM. Reason: added YouTube link
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:34 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by LivingInMEM View Post
Alvrb211,


Given how you feel about the 737 rudder design, how do you feel about the use of composite materials in structural areas? If I were to call either one unusual, I'd go with the composite materials as their introduction is a more drastic change from tradition than Boeing's rudder design. If the use of composites or the failure of the vert stab is attributable in this mishap, then I would suppose that those two types of failures would have caused more deaths than the 737 rudder has. What about Airbus's use of brake-by-wire? How many runway over-runs has that caused? This is a complex and dynamic environment that we operate in, and I wouldn't go so far to say that every failure is a result of "unusually poor" design.
Again, I don't even get into the Airbus v Boeing debate. I like both firms.

Composites are complex. Getting into composite technology that was way ahead of its time got Rolls Royce into trouble decades ago. Fortunately they learned from this and turned the firm around.

In the 21st century, we now see Boeing and Airbus going down this route in a big way.
I only hope they can avoid major problems. Decades on, composites are still a huge gamble!

ICAO needs to make sure strict certification standards are applied to composite aircraft.


Al

Last edited by alvrb211; 06-18-2009 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:00 AM
  #54  
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This thread is nothing but Internet BS.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:18 AM
  #55  
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No, this thread is nothing but internet BS.

This one is about a couple items that are currently unique to Airbus philosophy, a trend with composite vertical stabs, and the relative merits of the use of composites in aircraft design as a whole. Given the trend to use more and more composite structure in aircraft and the market share of Airbus, I'd think pilots would find it important to have a basis of understanding, even 737 pilots.

Your mileage may vary.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Boneman View Post
This thread is nothing but Internet BS.
So, what have you done either individually or cumulatively to ensure the safety of your industry? Even if it is something so small as highlighting concerns on the internet for other pilots to see, it is better than nothing.

Are you saying there were not concerns over the 737 rudder, the separations of Airbus vert stabs, the loss of Airbus rudders, or the appropriateness of using composite aircraft in structural applications in a Part 121 high-cycle long-life airliner?

Using just one example; had there been more talk about the rudder problems amongst the pilots after the C. Springs crash and how to mitigate such a failure, the Pittsburgh crew might have been able to recover the aircraft. That talk amongst the pilots might have urged the "authorities" that you obviously trust to act sooner. It wasn't until after the 2nd crash that the authorities recommended higher approach speeds, etc. until the PCU's could be replaced 10 years later.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:48 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Cliffy170 View Post
French look of disgust followed. "Baise Boeing..."
Really? I don't think I've heard anyone French (Canadian or France) say something say "Baise <company name>" when speaking ill of something.

Who were the Airbus folks who were at the hotel? We're they engineers? Test pilots? Executives?

Or were they sales folk, who, universally, are typically full of themselves and would sell out their own company at a moments notice if the money was better.

Just saying, there are some real rock stars at Airbus (in engineering and support groups) who aren't high on their companies supply. Anyhow, this thread is already off the tracks with the airbus hate.
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