Phase 3 Implementation DL
 

Just read the memo about Phase 3 activation.

Question for DAL-S guys

If you are on vacation for the entire month of July, are you required to check your company email and complete the distance learning while on your scheduled vacation? If you don't complete it by the deadline, are you taken off flight status and losing your vacation?

Seems pretty crappy if management can make you work on your vacation.

I can see someone having started vacation on 1 July and going on a 30 day cruise. If it were me I wouldn't be checking my company email on my cruise.

Don't you remember "Big Bubble":rolleyes:

Do you know of anyone in the situation you describe. I doubt a single person would have the whole month off and be on a cruise and unavailable all month. Regardless however all you have to do is contact your chief pilot. You will be required to do the training before your first trip back.

I haven't checked my company email in over 4 months. It is not a requirement. I do however get company updates sent to my regualr email. Plus, emails from DALPA tend to repeat the info.

In this specific case, no.

However, I have personally had 8 weeks off in a row between a full month of vacation and bidding a 14 day trip early in the month prior to vacation and a 14 day trip late in the month after my vacation. I spent 4 weeks of that out of country, so yes it is possible to be unavailable for one month or longer. Not so much for me as I now have kids, but I know of at least one pilot (not a Captain!) that owns residences in Idaho, Chicago, Hawaii and Colombia. He is also shopping for a residence in Bangkok. Pretty sure he doesn't check his company email ... ever.

There are a lot of DAL-N guys that didn't check their company e-mail on a regular basis, because it just wasn't necessary. All of our schedule change notifications, including assignment to training were done via phone call to primary home number and cell phone if one was provided. In addition, all of the important bulletins for fleet specific ops, general ops, vacation and schedule bidding were available as links on the Home page of ATLAS after you logged on. The only important things I ever received EXCLUSIVELY via company email were:

Confirmation that an ASAP was received
Confirmation that there was no action required after ASAP review
Confirmation that a copy of my physical and licenses was received by Central Admin. (Only because I requested the e-mail)

My volume 1 is so colorful now that its fun to try and find the white pages in it.

So I guess you never bid for your next schedule in that 8 weeks you were off? I'm sure you got online and looked at your schedule sometime in there.

We're not uptight about these things at Delta. The online training only takes 20 minutes or so - If I had a whole month off, I'm sure I could find 20 minutes in it to ensure I still get a paycheck.

Thats the whole point, we could do all bidding without ever going to company e-mail.

You could also just put a standby bid into the system 2 months in advance and let it ride.

There were also several bidding services you could use that charged you a monthly fee or you could have a buddy bid for you, much like the XCM phone tree that I've heard DAL-S guys have in place.

In any case, I'm either on vacation or I am not. Having a company requirement to accomplish online training means I am not on vacation. Glad to see the Chief Pilot can override the payroll issue.

Wow, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill! Every pilot knows that the transition is in phases. The basic time table has been out for months. If you want to paint a situation where a pilot could be out of touch for several months I am sure its possible. I have found however that virtually anywhere in the world I can get internet access. If not and a pilot has not completed the training the CP's office will look at his schedule and see the long block of time off. They wont drop his trips and will allow him to complete the training when he gets back. We are wasting bandwidth on this one.

Well a molehill at DAL-N was referred to as holes in the contract. Management used to find them quite regularly and try to drive trucks through those holes. Granted we had a very confrontational relationship with labor relations, but that doesn't mean it will never be that way at DL.

Maybe you guys remember Terry Erskine in labor relations. A real ba********. I was glad to see him leave NW. He went to DL. My friends at DL hated him.

In any case the larger question would have been, if management can require you to do distance learning while on vacation, what other work could they force on you under threat of being removed from flight status?

One of these days you will be flying over a molehill that turns into a mountain. Beware of CFIT and beware of an MEC that makes agreements without letting the voting reps see the contract language prior to signing.

A little molehill in Brazil started building jets in the 90s. Now it's a mountain.

That is for another thread of course, but Nosmo makes a good point, and especially in regards to red tail management.

There in lies the problem...... We should not have to do training on days off or vacation. If you want me to do training put it on my schedule and pay me for it (I know we get 10 minutes or so pay). Just because I can have internet access and time off shouldn't allow the company to dictate what I do with my free time.

I had personal leave forthe six weeks prior to the deadline for Phase 2. I hadn't gotten it done and I received 2 phone calls on the same day. One from some lady in I don't know what dept and the other from the CP. I was at home, but I think his scenario is more than plausible for others that enjoy more adventurous pursuits. A day off is exactly that. One shouldn't be bound to checking up on the company during personal time. If you knew it was coming then I too think it would be easier to just get it done. However, they haven't really given a lot of notice for these things. What's the most for any of the phases? Three weeks from being benched? I'm glad I get more notice for other things in my life that ave such a serious impact.

So you would rather have them tell you when to do it rather then do it at your leisure. I would prefer to do it when I want to get it done. Just for info I don't know many pilots who have used their own time. When you sign in for your next trip do it right then on their time and get extra pay. Its just not that hard!!!

It really is not that big of a deal. This makes us sound quite juvenile.

I agree, A lot of the posters better hope they never have to go to work in the real world. What a shock they are in for! The guy next door to me has been working all Holiday weekend from home. He works most of every Saturday from home and part of some Sundays. If he did not he would be asked to find another job. If your working a 6 figure job your asked to work way beyond normal hours in the real world. If you choose not to you soon find yourself on the street or in a dead end career track.

Heck that happens in under six figure jobs. The people that work with and for my wife do that all year long. When you are paid a salary, it is compensation to get said job done. Not to get the job done M-F between the hours of 8-5.

Are you working two careers? Pilots are not working as salaried management in real world corporations, we are working in a career that is still partially regulated by the US Government and US Labor Laws.

Are you under a different CONTRACT then the rest of the pilots? The contract is there for a reason, it is supposed to set limits on management and limits on the pilots. We are NOT salaried employees, we ARE contract workers covered by the Railway Labor Act.

Most executive employees in the outside world are not regulated by the government. Most salaried execs do not have the same protections and limitations, thats why their jobs can be more portable to other companies.
Pilots by virtue of seniority based contracts have largely traded portability for fleeting job security. Perhaps not the best trade off but thats what we have negotiated.

If you approve of DL management applying the outside world "rules" to us, then all the pilots at DAL are in big trouble. We should let them pay us an annual salary and fly us to FAR limits. We should let them remove all scope protection and rigs. As much as we like to think we are executives, we are covered under a LABOR contract. We are a LABOR union. We are covered under LABOR laws. We are not salaried management employees under individual contract.

There are at times special cases that need to be handled outside the contract, but rarely for the pilot group as a whole. I expect us to take advantage of the good parts of our contract, management will take advantage of the parts that were poorly negotiated.

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

What happened to professionalism? I agree, this isn't that hard to accomplish and you are being paid for doing the training. I'm on mil leave for the month but the training will be completed on schedule.

Is there a test on this one? If not, just self certify the thing & get paid.

You are going to have to study up again anyway before you fly the line with the new call outs. Procedurally, there is not much of a difference except for the cold weather operations, which I use as an opportunity to give myself a little one day recurrent yearly in October regardless.

Just be glad you did not lose your vacation and get to enjoy a month at the Comfort Inn for another Type and a pay cut, with the expectation of getting displaced again within 6 to 8 weeks.

Nosmo King

I agree with your general tenent.

But to use your own analogy, you are worrying about being a few feet off MDA when the problem really is that we are off course by 90 degrees.

Off course 90 degrees is SCOPE of course ;-)

Cheers
George

While you are correct... you seemed to miss a key part of your statement. "The guy next door to me has been working all Holiday weekend from home." I have been working all holiday weekend in Sao Paulo... on a 79 hour layover. (The upside is that I have finished most of my recurrent.) :D All that whining aside, since we do all of our training on our own time.. it really would be nice to be paid the entire amount of MY time that I spend on training.. not just the 1 for 3 or whatever it is.

This training is in compliance with the PWA. I guess you could say the same thing about the training you do every year. I do it on my overnights, but one way or another it is my time, and the company is compensating me according to the PWA.
Same is true here.
Do you get paid fora French Visa, a yellow fever shot, a FAA medical, renewal of you SIDA badge, or your Jep revisions? Nope, it is just part of the job. It is your responsibility as a professional to make sure these are current for your next fight. Much like this easy non jeopardy 20 minute power point. They will probably give you 12 minutes of pay for it too!

The training you are whining about is allowed by the contract. In the time you have spent here whining you could have done it two or 3 times. When you go to work sign in. Go to the Video, watch it and get paid a little extra for that trip and you don't have to give up a minute of your own time. Or watch it on a sit and again get paid extra. Delta has a airline to run and airlines to merge. It requires training. Some people want their company to succeed. Others for unknown reasons want to drive the company to failure. Kind of reminds me of the bitter ex wife who found a way to get her husband fired from his job. Made her feel great until the child support and alimoney checks stopped arriving.

Thank you for answering my original question that began this thread.

NW paid for the French Visa and China Visa, all we did was drop it off with a CP. They also reimbursed for passport renewal. Those days are now gone post merger. I believe NW was the last airline to pay for visas and passport renewal.

Reimbursed for immunizations, but they were not required to remain on flight status.

FAA Medical is reimbursed by DL, also covered in the contract.


SIDA badge - not required to have one

Jepp Revisions - NW policy allows this to be done while airborne, but there are certain time parameters in effect after issue date.

20 minutes now, 240 minutes next time, 480 minutes time after that?

Since you know the DL contract and I don't, I tend to ask questions in here and read the PWA while enroute. I haven't read the section on distance learning yet, but I will on my next trip since it has ow popped up on my radar.

So is it legal under the PWA for them to give you distance learning of say 3 days at 8 hours a day totalling 24 hours of runtime? Can they then say its available starting Dec 25 and must be complete by 31 Dec? What are the time completion and course length limitations for assignment of dist learning? Background - Distance Learning at NW was shutdown due to a pay vs. run time dispute.

The trend I am seeing here is that ex-NW had to deal with management that would cancel your vacations (fixed in last contract) and find all the holes they could in the contract to use against pilots, so we learned to defend our contract tooth and nail (ask your FedEx buddies about holes in the contract). Ex-DL haven't had to deal with that ... YET. Maybe you will understand being anal about contract enforcement and contract language after they screw you a few times. A few of the major culprits are still here post-merger in key positions. I hope you don't have to experience their contract "interpretations" the way we did at NW.

Delta pays for all required Visa's. I have held a French Visa for 20 years and they have never allowed them to be issued other then in person. He is referring to the time involved to get those Visa's not the cost. Takes almost a day to get the French Visa with the travel involved.

I spent about one minute at the end of a trip dropping off my passport at the CPs office so the staff could get my French Visa for me (or any crewmember that needed a visa). Those that had never flown international dropped off their passports with the training staff during initial qual and they magically reappeared about a week later with French Visas. Personal time spent - zero. We didn't have to do any travel to get a French Visa. NW paid for a courier/walk through service and for expediting at the Chicago Embassy.

That will change now with the new biometric requirements for French (and soon China) visas.

Yes I would rather have it put on my schedule, but that's just me...... When I come in for a trip I sign in and go do a briefing and then fly, I don't hang around at the airport. I am not saying it is "that hard" but rather I would like time allocated that is not on my off time or vacation. I am scheduled to be off from when the material is available until well in Aug, I just don't like being told I have to do something for work while on vacation. It'll get done it always does but I don't have to like the way it is being implemented.


Sorry dude I have worked in the real world..... I paid for my college and certificates by roughnecking, so I understand hard work and what it takes to make it! I also have owned a profitable small business (did this right after BK) and I worked 7 days a week and put in about 12 hours a day when not flying plus worked during off time on trips.

Where exactly is this policy, because I have never read it in the FOM?

The FOM page 1.5.6, under currency of revisions.

"The trend I am seeing here is that ex-NW had to deal with management that would cancel your vacations (fixed in last contract) and find all the holes they could in the contract to use against pilots, so we learned to defend our contract tooth and nail (ask your FedEx buddies about holes in the contract). Ex-DL haven't had to deal with that ... YET. Maybe you will understand being anal about contract enforcement and contract language after they screw you a few times. A few of the major culprits are still here post-merger in key positions. I hope you don't have to experience their contract "interpretations" the way we did at NW"

With NW you saw the knife coming, at other companies...they smile and get you in the back. Personally I would rather see the knife coming.

That doesn't say anything about revisions being allowed to be completed "during flight".

More importantly, where does it say I can't do Jepp Revisions while in flight?

JOHNSO29 is correct. There used to be a specific provision in the FOM that prohibited Jep revisions while in flight. That restriction was removed and replaced by the current language in the second paragraph on 9.1.14

Anyone thats been here for more than 10 years probably remembers when that changed.

Good to know and thanks for the references. I could have sworn that it specifically stated you couldn't.

Thanks again for the reference.

Sailing is correct. I was referring to the time involved. DAL pays for the Russian and French visas. They pay for the renewal of the passports etc.
They do not pay for your time, and that is allowed by the PWA. It is a cost of doing business I guess.

You also have your continuing Qual approved by the PWA. It has run 400+ minutes in years past as well. They pay for it is minimal, but once again, that is established in the PWA.

I personally think that in 2012 we should make it real easy. 5:15 for any day you show for work. That means 15:45 for your requal sim, 5:15 if you show up and scheduling cancels your rotation, not this 2:00 suit up pay, 5:15 for every day you sit reserve etc.
Some will argue this, but it is just the cost of doing business.

I could live with that. We probably wouldn't even need any trip regs. Keep the duty regs for the illegal overnights.

You haven't figured out who you work for now. These people have a way of making 10 minutes turn into 10 hours.