It's the unions Constitution and By-Laws that determine the ratification process, not the "law". I believe that USAPA's C&BLs has membership ratification.

Well, there's always the appeals process....that'll take at least another 6-8 months.

Nu

I wonder if there is a way for Parker to isolate the East operation into something that cannot sink th entire ship ?

If he can, he can let that operation sink itself, liquidate it and move on with the remainder. His first priority should be to prevent this cancerous situation from killing his patient.........any way he can.

That's not how I remember that battle. As I understand it the East fought the company and refused to negotiate. The result was that they lost their retirement and had a garbage contract stuffed down their throats. History seems to repeat itself. I've never met a denser bunch.

[quote=eaglefly;647180]I wonder if there is a way for Parker to isolate the East operation into something that cannot sink th entire ship ?

Uh, guys.....the east is the side that makes all your money. I don't work there and even I can see that...

My point was that since there is nothing about membership ratification in federal or state law, that the judge could take it upon himself to suspend membership ratification of this contract, without regard to what the USAPA has to say about it.

Joe

Actually, if you'll read the entire context of the injunction you will see he cannot. He has already considered the request to unilaterally impose the NIC and stated he could not do that. If he can't do that he certainly cannot IMPOSE a contract on anyone. Not outside of Ch.11 anyway...

You don't work here yet you know financial information that is not provided to investors/public and in reality doesn't exist, makes me question you integrity.

Riddle me this, how much money has the east made in the last 10 years? Just wonder why they went into BK twice if they had that gold mine out east.

What other USAPA talking points do you have?

I agree that he can't impose a contract, but I believe that he could suspend membership ratification, and that would leave it in the hands of the USAPA MEC. The judge CAN hold their feet to the fire if he so chooses.

Joe

To make things clear. Nic is the list at USAIR. It was accepted already by USAIR management as the list after the binding arbitration. It is in effect today however has no practical effect until they combine the operations which requires a joint contract.

.....disregard....

I believe that is an incorrect statement. He didn't consider imposing the Nicolau award because the plaintiffs withdrew the request. See footnote 16.

16 Plaintiffs originally sought relief directing the Airline to begin using the Nicolau Award for promotions and furloughs by a date certain, even if a new CBA has not been finalized. Plaintiffs withdrew this request during bench trial proceedings. [Doc. # 485, at 58.] For this reason, the bench trial testimony of Plaintiffs’ witness Brian Stockdell regarding Airline logistics is not considered and does not affect the analysis.

It is in the USAPA constitution that members vote on every important issue. What an amazing new concept, the dues paying line pilots make the decisions regarding their destiny.

The first vote during the birth of USAPA was to fire the ALPA union as their representative.

:mad:You're right, but it would just be someone else's buddy on the east side instead. The furloughs have nothing to do with the merger.

I don't know where you guys are going with the USAPA MEC voting in a contract versus the membership. Does anyone REALLY think that USAPA leaders would vote in a contract that the east membership (the majority, and the one's who voted the USAPA membership into office) didn't support?

I get the feeling that the west pilots would be opposed to massive fences. True?

I don't see why an airtight no-furlough clause (no furloughs until all aircraft not flown by US mainline seniority list pilots are gone), huge fences, and pay based on longevity wouldn't pass. While you can't throw out the Nic award, you can mitigate its effects, certainly.

How's that working out for you? A lot of new success I hope?

I fully understand that it is in the USAPA constitution. My point is that the judge may, at his sole discretion, choose to disregard the USAPA constitution, and say that the members do not get to vote on this contract.

Joe

joepilot,So you are suggesting that a judge would FORCE the MEC to vote on a contract- and apparently they must vote “yes” just to, solely to, only to, enforce the Nic award? I presume that you have seen contract negotiations – know that they involve vacation, retirement, benefits, pay, reserve, - lots of things, other than seniority. So you honestly believe that a judge would force a joint contract vote? Tell me joe, would the judge read over the contract, would he do a cost analysis? I suppose if the judge is going to force the MEC to vote “yes” ,then the company is in a very good position. Perhaps the company should just offer less and less because according to you, the pilots really do not have a say in the contract negotiations. It is all up to the company and the judge. The longer the company drags its feet, the more time goes by, the more impatient the judge will become. Really, is this how you see this going down? Why don’t we just fast forward and let the judge negotiate a deal with the company- anything to get the NIC, "award" in place.

Sounds like bad faith bargaining to me. Imposing fences that aren't contained in the Nicolau award is the same as not supporting the Nicolau award. The judge has maintained jurisdiction and I'm sure he won't hesitate to slap down any attempts to deny the west their seniority rights. Creating fences that were not a part of the Nicolau award would in fact deny west pilots their seniority rights.

You might try for a longevity based pay scheme, but I doubt that senior east pilots would accept the pay cut, and I'm fairly certain that the west pilots wont go for it either.

At the end of the day the Nicolau award will be implemented in total, with or without a JCBA.

It's time to accept that final and binding means final and binding and move on.

The judge has retained jurisdiction. If need be he can implement the Nicolau award with or without a JCBA in order to ensure that all those reason you assert are not just a pretext to avoid honoring USAPA's and the east pilots obligation to implement the Nicolau Award. The Nic is coming.

shiznit- USAPA is working out quite nicely given the circumstances. Furthermore, if there were to be another merger in the future, because of the McCaskill-Bond provision, the USAirways pilots are in a much better position with USAPA. Again, if the company wants to merge any time in the near future, the East pilots will have to be made whole, one way or another. Of course, Mr. Parker has not shown any indication that he understands this fact any more than the West pilots have. Which is why I have little hope, in today’s environment that USAirways will survive. Mr. Parker could have brought the East pilots to parity with the West from the beginning. The West would not have been so overconfident that the East would capitulate and the East would not have had so much at stake. Mr. Parker was never insightful enough to be proactive and true to form, pilots behaved in their usual cannibalistic manner.
Reroute- the Nic will never see the light of day- the airline will go bankrupt first. As long as there is this much pilot-pilot rancor, investors will see it for the civil war, poison that it is.

The west was not obligated to do one d*mn thing (as was the east) other than haul their *sses to court and present their case.

All this "made whole" and "capitulating" talk is pure B.S.

It is an understatement that the East was WAY to overconfident about what the outcome would be going into all of this and it has remained that way ever since the rulings started getting dropped.

The fact remains that the East keeps losing their case and all they keep screaming for it "DO OVER!, THAT ONE DIDN"T COUNT".

Trust me I feel for the east...I think they've had a raw deal since the day they set foot on the property.

But they made their bed...ALPA or USAPA...doesn't matter who was running the show, their leadership has failed them for quite some time.

Perhaps it's time to unite and actually start winning some battles against management (tall order, I know).

It's natural to "want it all", but the easties haven't "got it all" for quite sometime...it's not like the screwing started when the merger came along.

Perhaps the best move for Parker IS to take the company to Chapter 11 BK court. THEN, argue that is was the intransagence of the east pilots and USAPA that put them there and request the nic award be part of the reorganization and move forward.

Again, if I were Parker at this point, I'd be taking no prisoners to move this company to where it has to be and whomever wants to quit in the aftermath, so be it.

If he had any stones, he'd be fed up with this hostage garbage and bust a move.

For what it's worth, I would expect a joint contract this winter, negotiated under the threat of an 1113 hearing. Unfortunately, the USAPA mulligan quest has prevented Doug Parker from capturing any significant merger synergies, and has put USAirway's survival at risk.

CVG76, I agree completely. Many people for some reason ignore the elephant in the room- USAir is going bankrupt. The only question is whether it happens before or after UAL files. Nicolau will be activated during one of the bankruptcy hearings some time in the Spring. It is a shame the east pilots threw away so much money chasing a phantom dream.

Jack-
You seem to underestimate the power of a federal judge.
He can place the whole USAPA under "trusteeship". Its been done to much larger unions. (federal judges pretty much ran the entire Teamsters union in the 1980s)
He can remove the union leadership. He can appoint "cactiboss" as the trustee if he wants.
He can find individuals in contempt. He can impose fines and jail time.
His power is nearly limitless.
If a federal judge can order US Army troops to remove the governor of a state from the doorway of a schoolhouse and integrate that school at the point of a gun, then I think a federal judge can handle the USAPA.

You will be in great peril if you think you can defy a federal court order.

LCC may not be around if the need for BK arises.... The current BK laws make it much more difficult for them to enter into BK, especially in todays economic enviroment. Who would provide DIP financing?

It could be the same as the first one, a wall street arranged marriage of convience by the banks trying to protect their investments. Add UAL to th emix this time

Maybe, but I don't see anyone willing and able to line up with the $$ required. Even GE, Boeing, etc don't have the capital to spare right now.

How about a "formation bankruptcy" where they both go in together and merge during and fly out the other side as one ?

Just thinking out loud.........boy what a trip that'd be.

At any rate, if either one of these companies does go into BK, each could expect to lose about 1/3 of their pilot jobs at a minimum. Barring a dramitic improvement in the economy over the next 12 months, my bet says there's going to be a lot more pilots on the street looking for work next summer.

The USAPians are going to find out just how much their DOH is worth....

during chapter 33 or a merger. Imposed terms and conditions will implement the list (if there's a company to implement it).

Who is suggesting that anyone “defy a federal court order?” I am suggesting that the company needs to come to the table with a decent proposal, which is highly unlikely. When I read these blogs, I wonder if you have had a look at what the company has done so far. The judge can “find individuals in contempt. He can impose fines and jail time.” – For pilots not agreeing to a contract? Have you SEEN what the company has offered? So pilots will go to jail for not agreeing to wages that are significantly less than industry standards? Perhaps, the judge will throw USAirways management in jail for not negotiating in good faith. Sweet! The headlines will read, “Pilots and Management Kiss and Make Up Behind Bars!” Or maybe, “Management and Union Make Unlikely Bedfellows in State Pen.”
I do agree that UAL is the big question. Chapter 11 or an 1113 hearing assumes that there will be something left to save. Financing will be much, much more difficult to find this time around. LCC‘s credit rating is a problem and then there is the question how much collateral is actually eligible for Section 1110 bankruptcy.
Eaglefly, if Mr. Parker went to court to “argue that is was the intransigence (I can only assume this is the word you were going for) of the east pilots and USAPA that put them” into bankruptcy- he would have some real “'splainin' to do!”
And finally, the judge’s “power is nearly limitless” according to the rule of law. The power to survive is in the hands of management and both pilot groups.

USAirways management doesn't need to come to the table with a decent proposal. Assuming a bankruptcy filing is imminent, or has occurred, they simply need to propose a contract that they can afford. It may not even be an improvement over what's in place now.

The next step would be the 1113 hearing to void the current contract, and impose new terms and conditions of employment. USAPA can negotiate under the threat of an imposed contract, and try to get some minor improvements, but their leverage at that point is almost nil.

Since their inception, they've gradually squandered the little bit of leverage they had.

The only obstacle that is standing in Parker's way is the east pilots and USAPA. They are the only group that is defying the seniority ruling in the face of repeated confirmations of its validity and thus the primary jeopardy to any chance of the company remaining out of BK.

As such, I see no reason why the easties and USAPA shouldn't get the shaft from yet another judge.

You just can't escape the long arm of the law. The Nicolau award is the integrated seniority list, it will be implemented, particularly if you enter bankruptcy or are acquired or fragmented.

*****BINGO*****

That Sir, is the understatement of the millenium

I'm sure the west guys furloughed would argue that.

Reading all the poisoned comments on this thread i would say; NOT A CHANCE IN HELL. Glad I'm no longer working there, what a cluster ******!!!!!!!

What's with all this talk of bankruptcy? US Airways has been consistently overselling flights. There are numerous paying passengers that don't get on, much less any non-revs. Thank god for the jumpseat!

US Airways has a huge load factor; that, coupled with dog crap labor wages and oil prices less than half of what they were a year ago, the airline industry is looking toward a very profitable 2nd half of the year. Despite the economy, the seats are filled, at least at Airways.