Southwest may make a bid for Frontier
08-02-2009, 08:48 PM
#251
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 320B
Posts: 781
Originally Posted by SebastianDesoto
Here is what I wrote:
"...Capital expenditures jumped from $74,262,000 in 2006 to $137,324,000 in 2007, to $350,844,000 in 2008. The difference in these expenditures would have more than made up for the $82 million in lose of cash for 2008. These capital expenditures could have been attributed to an increase in spare parts and seat replacements. Nothing in the notes indicated acquiring new aircraft. In fact, these notes indicate the sale of aircraft...".
I really don't want to get caught up in this thread, or let it creep away from the topic, but wanted to point out a couple of quick items for you. I took a very quick look at the 10k for FY2008 and found the following:
"Investing Activities. Cash used in investing activities for the year ended March 31, 2008 was $294,534,000. Capital expenditures were $350,844,000 for the year ended March 31, 2008, which included the purchase of three Airbus A318 aircraft, two Airbus A320 aircraft and ten Bombardier Q400 aircraft, new leather seat sets for 53 aircraft, the purchase of LiveTV equipment, rotable aircraft components, aircraft improvements, information technology enhancements, and ground equipment. Aircraft lease and purchase deposits made for aircraft deliveries during the period were $28,332,000. We also received $92,525,000 primarily from the sale of five of the 10 newly acquired Bombardier Q400 aircraft in sale-leaseback transactions.
" (Frontier 2008 10k report)
08-02-2009, 08:51 PM
#252
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by thepilotswife
We don't know that the pilots would take a pay cut at Republic. We don't know a lot. They very well could run Frontier as is and continue to grow them and compete against SWA.
I'm just sort of bitter because I feel like IF the F9 pilots allow themselves to be stapled to the bottom they are just handing Denver to SWA (where they don't seem to be profitable and are having a harder time competing here than they probably thought).
I would rather take a chance that Frontier can remain its own airline than not.
I understand why jr FOs at F9 would think it is a great deal to be stapled at the bottom but it is not such a great deal for those that have been at F9 a long time.
I can only dream that an independent investor will come through tomorrow and save us!
I'm just sort of bitter because I feel like IF the F9 pilots allow themselves to be stapled to the bottom they are just handing Denver to SWA (where they don't seem to be profitable and are having a harder time competing here than they probably thought).
I would rather take a chance that Frontier can remain its own airline than not.
I understand why jr FOs at F9 would think it is a great deal to be stapled at the bottom but it is not such a great deal for those that have been at F9 a long time.
I can only dream that an independent investor will come through tomorrow and save us!
To The Pilots Wife,
You have made many valid points.
Your demeanor and professionalism is excellent.
Your Husband is probably very proud of the way you are handling yourself in this difficult time. My wife has supported me for the past 15 years of 121 Airline Flying and she is the best.
Let me also say that I have been through the ups, and downs, of this industry. I have Flown ( and been furloughed, or bought out ) for Carnival Airlines, Pan Am, Sky Trek Int'l, Midway Airlines, United Airlines, Sony Pictures, and Republic Airlines.
With Republic Airlines I fly with one the Most Professional, and Experienced, Group Men and Women in this Industry.
With that said,
The Final Decision on who will be the Successful Bidder of Frontier Airlines, will ultimately, be made by The Bankruptcy Judge.
That Judge will decide what Bid meets the criteria of being " In The best Interest of Frontier Airlines. "
Any Successful Bidder must meet very stringent criteria to be successful--that may not be just putting up the most money--it also entails a Clearly Defined Plan for the Growth, and, Continued Operation Of Frontier Airlines
The most important goal is that the Frontier Family is allowed to continue to be a viable entity in this Industry.
As a Pilot for Republic Airlines, Our Group wants to the F9 family to continue.
Our group WILL NOT BE TAKING A PAY CUT!
What occured in the previous contract--WILL NOT OCCUR AGAIN!
We have NEW UNION TRUSTEES and an Experienced INTEGRATION COMMITTEE.
We will not sell ourselves, or the F9, Family down the River.
We know Fences will be established for a few years and Integration WILL EVENTUALLY HAPPEN--if our bid is successful--and we are prepared to accept that we may eventually be moved down the list, but, WHAT WE ALL STAND TO GAIN ( In Larger Picture, ie: Pay, Job Security, Market Dominance, Better QOL, etc. ) SUPERSEDES the egotistical nonsense I have been reading on this site coming from people speculating in ways similar to the WALL STREET PROFESSIONALS that contributed to the demise of the Economy.
Our current Contract IS EXPIRED and Any New CBA WILL ENTAIL NEW, HIGHER INDUSTRY STANDARD RATES FOR THE AIRFRAMES ON THE PROPERTY--PERIOD.
Anything less--WILL RECIEVE A " NO " VOTE!
The goal is to OPERATE FRONTIER AS IS--GROW THE BRAND, FEED IT --AND CONTINUE TO COMPETE--becoming even stronger!
THERE WILL BE NO STAPLING!
It doesn't pay for us to make a bid for the carrier--if it's wasn't a viable entity with a wealth of GROWTH OPPORTUNITY!
Unlike SWA, We are not bidding for F9 to GET RID OF THE COMPETITION!
On the contrary, it is to continue to take a PROVEN BRAND, PROVIDE THE CASH INFUSION, ALLOW THE BRAND TO CONTINUE TO OPERATE AS IS, STRENGTHEN IT'S COMPETETIVE BASE AND ROUTE STRUCTURE THROUGH THE US/MEXICO, KEEP THE F9 FAMILY EMPLOYED--thus allowing the brand to RETAIN A FORMIDABLE, COMPETITIVE EDGE!
You're right--Most People really know nothing about us--and just spew out worthless speculation and BS Rhetoric--none of which is based on many(if any facts)
Give us a chance--You will be quite Surprised and Pleased
.I long to accomplish a great and noble tasks, but it is my chief duty to accomplish humble tasks as though they were great and noble. The world is moved along, not only by the mighty shoves of its heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker.
I hope to get the opportunity to fly with your Husband. I'm sure we can learn much from each other.
08-02-2009, 09:37 PM
#253
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by Lifer
To The Pilots Wife,
You have made many valid points.
Your demeanor and professionalism is excellent.
Your Husband is probably very proud of the way you are handling yourself in this difficult time. My wife has supported me for the past 15 years of 121 Airline Flying and she is the best.
Let me also say that I have been through the ups, and downs, of this industry. I have Flown ( and been furloughed, or bought out ) for Carnival Airlines, Pan Am, Sky Trek Int'l, Midway Airlines, United Airlines, Sony Pictures, and Republic Airlines.
With Republic Airlines I fly with one the Most Professional, and Experienced, Group Men and Women in this Industry.
With that said,
The Final Decision on who will be the Successful Bidder of Frontier Airlines, will ultimately, be made by The Bankruptcy Judge.
That Judge will decide what Bid meets the criteria of being " In The best Interest of Frontier Airlines. "
Any Successful Bidder must meet very stringent criteria to be successful--that may not be just putting up the most money--it also entails a Clearly Defined Plan for the Growth, and, Continued Operation Of Frontier Airlines
The most important goal is that the Frontier Family is allowed to continue to be a viable entity in this Industry.
As a Pilot for Republic Airlines, Our Group wants to the F9 family to continue.
Our group WILL NOT BE TAKING A PAY CUT!
What occured in the previous contract--WILL NOT OCCUR AGAIN!
We have NEW UNION TRUSTEES and an Experienced INTEGRATION COMMITTEE.
We will not sell ourselves, or the F9, Family down the River.
We know Fences will be established for a few years and Integration WILL EVENTUALLY HAPPEN--if our bid is successful--and we are prepared to accept that we may eventually be moved down the list, but, WHAT WE ALL STAND TO GAIN ( In Larger Picture, ie: Pay, Job Security, Market Dominance, Better QOL, etc. ) SUPERSEDES the egotistical nonsense I have been reading on this site coming from people speculating in ways similar to the WALL STREET PROFESSIONALS that contributed to the demise of the Economy.
Our current Contract IS EXPIRED and Any New CBA WILL ENTAIL NEW, HIGHER INDUSTRY STANDARD RATES FOR THE AIRFRAMES ON THE PROPERTY--PERIOD.
Anything less--WILL RECIEVE A " NO " VOTE!
The goal is to OPERATE FRONTIER AS IS--GROW THE BRAND, FEED IT --AND CONTINUE TO COMPETE--becoming even stronger!
THERE WILL BE NO STAPLING!
It doesn't pay for us to make a bid for the carrier--if it's wasn't a viable entity with a wealth of GROWTH OPPORTUNITY!
Unlike SWA, We are not bidding for F9 to GET RID OF THE COMPETITION!
On the contrary, it is to continue to take a PROVEN BRAND, PROVIDE THE CASH INFUSION, ALLOW THE BRAND TO CONTINUE TO OPERATE AS IS, STRENGTHEN IT'S COMPETETIVE BASE AND ROUTE STRUCTURE THROUGH THE US/MEXICO, KEEP THE F9 FAMILY EMPLOYED--thus allowing the brand to RETAIN A FORMIDABLE, COMPETITIVE EDGE!
You're right--Most People really know nothing about us--and just spew out worthless speculation and BS Rhetoric--none of which is based on many(if any facts)
Give us a chance--You will be quite Surprised and Pleased.
I long to accomplish a great and noble tasks, but it is my chief duty to accomplish humble tasks as though they were great and noble. The world is moved along, not only by the mighty shoves of its heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker.
I hope to get the opportunity to fly with your Husband. I'm sure we can learn much from each other.
You have made many valid points.
Your demeanor and professionalism is excellent.
Your Husband is probably very proud of the way you are handling yourself in this difficult time. My wife has supported me for the past 15 years of 121 Airline Flying and she is the best.
Let me also say that I have been through the ups, and downs, of this industry. I have Flown ( and been furloughed, or bought out ) for Carnival Airlines, Pan Am, Sky Trek Int'l, Midway Airlines, United Airlines, Sony Pictures, and Republic Airlines.
With Republic Airlines I fly with one the Most Professional, and Experienced, Group Men and Women in this Industry.
With that said,
The Final Decision on who will be the Successful Bidder of Frontier Airlines, will ultimately, be made by The Bankruptcy Judge.
That Judge will decide what Bid meets the criteria of being " In The best Interest of Frontier Airlines. "
Any Successful Bidder must meet very stringent criteria to be successful--that may not be just putting up the most money--it also entails a Clearly Defined Plan for the Growth, and, Continued Operation Of Frontier Airlines
The most important goal is that the Frontier Family is allowed to continue to be a viable entity in this Industry.
As a Pilot for Republic Airlines, Our Group wants to the F9 family to continue.
Our group WILL NOT BE TAKING A PAY CUT!
What occured in the previous contract--WILL NOT OCCUR AGAIN!
We have NEW UNION TRUSTEES and an Experienced INTEGRATION COMMITTEE.
We will not sell ourselves, or the F9, Family down the River.
We know Fences will be established for a few years and Integration WILL EVENTUALLY HAPPEN--if our bid is successful--and we are prepared to accept that we may eventually be moved down the list, but, WHAT WE ALL STAND TO GAIN ( In Larger Picture, ie: Pay, Job Security, Market Dominance, Better QOL, etc. ) SUPERSEDES the egotistical nonsense I have been reading on this site coming from people speculating in ways similar to the WALL STREET PROFESSIONALS that contributed to the demise of the Economy.
Our current Contract IS EXPIRED and Any New CBA WILL ENTAIL NEW, HIGHER INDUSTRY STANDARD RATES FOR THE AIRFRAMES ON THE PROPERTY--PERIOD.
Anything less--WILL RECIEVE A " NO " VOTE!
The goal is to OPERATE FRONTIER AS IS--GROW THE BRAND, FEED IT --AND CONTINUE TO COMPETE--becoming even stronger!
THERE WILL BE NO STAPLING!
It doesn't pay for us to make a bid for the carrier--if it's wasn't a viable entity with a wealth of GROWTH OPPORTUNITY!
Unlike SWA, We are not bidding for F9 to GET RID OF THE COMPETITION!
On the contrary, it is to continue to take a PROVEN BRAND, PROVIDE THE CASH INFUSION, ALLOW THE BRAND TO CONTINUE TO OPERATE AS IS, STRENGTHEN IT'S COMPETETIVE BASE AND ROUTE STRUCTURE THROUGH THE US/MEXICO, KEEP THE F9 FAMILY EMPLOYED--thus allowing the brand to RETAIN A FORMIDABLE, COMPETITIVE EDGE!
You're right--Most People really know nothing about us--and just spew out worthless speculation and BS Rhetoric--none of which is based on many(if any facts)
Give us a chance--You will be quite Surprised and Pleased
.I long to accomplish a great and noble tasks, but it is my chief duty to accomplish humble tasks as though they were great and noble. The world is moved along, not only by the mighty shoves of its heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker.
I hope to get the opportunity to fly with your Husband. I'm sure we can learn much from each other.
Yes, sadly SWA is making this move due in part to eliminate competition. Man am I glad to work for a company that operates that way. You are in the aviation industry right? You say there will be no stapling. I'm curious how you know this. Why don't you also throw out a statement like there will be a Pay/Seat freeze. Sounds pretty good. Good luck w/ your new contract. I do sincerely hope you folks get what you want. I would not be so brash however as to state Industry Standard Pay Rates as fact prior to the ink drying. Just my opinion.
To PilotsWife I sympathize. I understand your point of view and I respect it. It has to be very challenging for your family right now and my thoughts are with you. Good Luck. If the F9 pilots think that Republic is the way to go then that is where their union should be making recommendations. I don't think poorly of that point of view at all. I caution you however to take a look at the track record.
There were many Morris folks that were ****ed off about their situation when they were brought to WN. Tough to find many who are upset at their position now. Do I think the same opportunities exist now that did back then?? No. Do I believe in my heart that the F9 folks would be welcomed and happy at SWA?? Yes. As stated before, all the F9 folks I have met are fantastic. Be a pleasure to work with them. Same goes for most of the pilot groups out there. I don't think I am better or worse than any one of them. Just trying to make it through...
08-03-2009, 06:35 AM
#255
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
Originally Posted by thepilotswife
We don't know that the pilots would take a pay cut at Republic. We don't know a lot. They very well could run Frontier as is and continue to grow them and compete against SWA.
I'm just sort of bitter because I feel like IF the F9 pilots allow themselves to be stapled to the bottom they are just handing Denver to SWA (where they don't seem to be profitable and are having a harder time competing here than they probably thought).
I would rather take a chance that Frontier can remain its own airline than not.
I understand why jr FOs at F9 would think it is a great deal to be stapled at the bottom but it is not such a great deal for those that have been at F9 a long time.
I can only dream that an independent investor will come through tomorrow and save us!
I'm just sort of bitter because I feel like IF the F9 pilots allow themselves to be stapled to the bottom they are just handing Denver to SWA (where they don't seem to be profitable and are having a harder time competing here than they probably thought).
I would rather take a chance that Frontier can remain its own airline than not.
I understand why jr FOs at F9 would think it is a great deal to be stapled at the bottom but it is not such a great deal for those that have been at F9 a long time.
I can only dream that an independent investor will come through tomorrow and save us!
All of your points and desires are good ones. Please be very careful of being swayed by anyone who has a vested interest (i.e. Lifer) in this deal. I find it very difficult to believe that given his/her position at RAH that he has a finger on the pulse of what RAH's plans are. Perhaps an explanation of what has happened to Midwest should indicate how F9's folks will be treated. An opinion from a pilot is of little value in this situation until we get all of the facts of what is being offered. Everything else is just conjecture at this point. I might add that many of the points being made with regards to the Muse/Transtar and Morris situations are being misrepresented. I believe they are not indicative of what F9's situation is and how the employees will be treated by SWA. But remember I am just a pilot with an opinion. While I wish that an amicable deal can be made to bring F9's employees over to SWA in a fair and equitable manner I am not holding my breath. Frankly the mean-spirited attitude of some of my fellow employees who have posted on APC is discouraging to me. I fully expect to be shouted down soon. Best of luck to your family and the decision to be made.
Oscar
08-03-2009, 06:36 AM
#256
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,160
Date of hire isnt happening. You are in dreamland to think otherwise. Nor would that be fair to SWA pilots. To the F9 wife. What about an FO staple, with the CA's intergrated into the FO list 4-1? Your husband wouldnt be a CA anymore. Who really cares? I pay bills with cash not stripes on my shoulder. He would have stable employemnt with a great company. All F9 pilots would be pay protected until their rate hit SWA rates. The F9 FO's would be getting a huge raise overnight. Does this sound fair and equitable? What I suggested by the way would once again delay my upgrade at SWA, however I would like to see F9 guys on property and not on the streets.
Poolies I am sorry but you arent here yet. Your employment offer was contingent.
Poolies I am sorry but you arent here yet. Your employment offer was contingent.
08-03-2009, 08:09 AM
#257
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 3
Are there any other reasons?
SWA operates a totally different model than most airlines. Frontier along with many other airlines operate a hub and spoke. To go ATL to LAX on Frontier you have to go through DEN and connect to an LAX flight (unless that airplane is a through flight). So, hub and spoke carriers traditionally have higher load factors. F9 has high load factors because everyone that flies on F9 out of ATL has to go to DEN to get where they are going. Thus, many of those pax are through pax simply going somewhere else unless their final destination is DEN.
SWA is a point to point carrier. When you fly SWA to RDU, the majority of those pax start in DEN and get off in RDU. There are a much lower ratio of transfer passengers on SWA planes, because we don't traditionally connect passengers in DEN like F9 does. I think this is why the ramp up in DEN has been seen as "trying to take F9 or UAL out." Actually, it might seem like that, but that is just a misunderstanding of our business model. We make money on frequency not necessarily filling every seat with a butt. So, you will always see SWA with lower LFs out of cities, but we break even with 70% LFs whereas many other carriers need a higher LF to make money.
Consequently, F9 is totally dependent on DEN. SWA has many cities, more flights with a bigger "route" network. So, we can, in essence, fall behind of F9 profits in DEN, but still make it up in many other markets. F9 lives or dies in DEN and I believe that is why they are in the position they are in. They have tried focus cities like MEM and LAX, and it has not gone well for them. SO, the point is LF comparison is not valid in determining who is winning the profit war in any given market. It's apples and oranges.
Secondly, while attempting to acquire F9 would help eliminate some competition in DEN, SWA is also pursuing this because it would give us more market share, it would help us grow with out having to infuse too much capital (of course this remains to be seen), and it would give us an in-house near international operation that we can study without having to farm out to WestJet or Volaris. So, the main issue here is jump starting growth with a removal of competition as a secondary effect.
Pilot'sWife, I cannot imagine how stressful this situation is for you and your family, and I pray that this works out for you. Try to separate emotion from fact though. Nobody is evil in this situation. I just try to put food on the table for my wife and three kids just like every F9 pilot and every Republic pilot. SWA or RAH are not the enemy here, F9 is in bankruptcy and this is part of the process. F9 is NOT "handing DEN to SWA," someone is going to get F9 - it is part of the process. Hatred towards any one company because of what you perceive or have been told is just that - emotion and not fact.
The reality is here that SWA would like to have F9, but it doesn't need F9 to continue making money. I think the F9 pilots need to ask themselves if they go with Republic can they say the same? A valid question, a tough question, but a choice to be made nonetheless.
I hope that doesn't sound cold, but it is reality. SWA will keep on trucking whether this deal falls through or not. It would be nice to gain F9, but not the end all. Unfortunately, that is the leverage the SWA and it's pilots have in this situation.
08-03-2009, 10:31 AM
#259
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: FO
Posts: 247
Originally Posted by mulcher
Date of hire isnt happening. You are in dreamland to think otherwise. Nor would that be fair to SWA pilots. To the F9 wife. What about an FO staple, with the CA's intergrated into the FO list 4-1? Your husband wouldnt be a CA anymore. Who really cares? I pay bills with cash not stripes on my shoulder. He would have stable employemnt with a great company. All F9 pilots would be pay protected until their rate hit SWA rates. The F9 FO's would be getting a huge raise overnight. Does this sound fair and equitable? What I suggested by the way would once again delay my upgrade at SWA, however I would like to see F9 guys on property and not on the streets.
Poolies I am sorry but you arent here yet. Your employment offer was contingent.
Poolies I am sorry but you arent here yet. Your employment offer was contingent.
08-03-2009, 10:55 AM
#260
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 128
Originally Posted by Flex81
Because of the growth that SWA will have in Denver, I think there is a way to integrate the F9 pilots without screwing the SWA pilots. I am furloughed F9 so obviously I wouldn't mind a staple for myself, but there are others that would not want/deserve that. I am not going to agree or disagree with your idea of "fair and equitable", but I think you are on the right track. I would like to see some language on base protection to allow the F9ers to stay in Denver as well. Hopefully our two groups can come to an agreement soon.
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