Radical Idea Pilot Pay looking for input
 

I have a radical idea about pilot pay and I wanted to see what everyone thought about it. This is a rough idea but I am sure you guy's will add to it if you think it might work.

Each pilot would get paid based off of a ticket surcharge. Lets say $2 per passenger per leg for First Officers and $3 per leg for Captains. We could change the dollar about to whatever we and the company deem is fair. Five dollars per pax per leg for pilot wages. After doing the math maybe it should be 5 for FO's and 7 for CA per leg.
Their would need to be a minimum pay per day of reserve lets say $150 plus whatever you make per leg of flying.
I guess their would have to be a domestic charge and a higher charge for international flight since they don't fly as many legs per month.

Positives
The public will not think we are grossly over paid. ( if they only knew the truth)
I don't think any passenger would have a problem with paying $5 per leg or $12 per leg.
If Planes are full we make good money if their not we help the company out in hard times.
Levels the paying field from airline to airline with regard to pay.
You don't have to climb the pyramid of pay.
Airlines can compete by increasing customer service instead of cutting our pay to lower ticket prices.
We don't have to wait 15 years plus several different airline to make a fair wage.
No regionals vs Majors just routes and planes.
Old guys would not necessarily have to fly long hall flights to make the big dollars.

Negatives
You guys can tell me.

Examples

30 passengers

60 per leg FO's
90 per leg CA's

4 legs per day
$240 FO's
$360 CA's

15 day month
$3600 FO's
$5400 CA's

40 Passengers
80 per leg FO's
120 per leg CA's

4 legs per day
$320 FO's
480 CA's

15 Day Month
$4800 FO's
$7200 CA's

150 passengers
$300 per leg FO's
450 per leg CA's

3 legs per day
$900 FO's
$1350 CA's

15 day month
$13,500 FO's
$20,250 CA's

Per Seat instead of per passenger per leg would be a better idea

How about this, 1 passenger...50 seat airplane...4 hour leg.

Or

zero passengers on a mx repo..

Way to complicated...

You can keep the current payrates, but pay me by DUTY HOUR! That way I can actually make a living and afford to eat, and it would put an end to unproductive trips and 3 hr. airport sits.

I thought about that but in down times companies need to cut cost if it is by passengers they can control cost on a day to day basis which will hopefully allow them to make money.

but your idea is good to but do they come to us for pay cuts when seat demand is low?

So you really think that a pilot flying 30 pax is worth less than a pilot flying 150 or 300+ pax? I disagree with you on that point. Lets rather start a payscale based on experience than on how many pax a company has on a specific plane. We go through the same training (well, as international heavy ac pilot we actually have an extra training day every six months.... big deal...), therefore the pay should be the same. This works with a few airlines here in the US and many overseas. The ability to fly international is something few can can do comfortably, and I much rather see the guys that have families to take care of stay closer to home and have more layovers in base than hunting for the mighty dollar by bidding flights and ac's that could, and has many times over, destroyed their family's life due to the fact that they might make a few more $$$'s. Personally I am one of the few guys that love the international flying but I fly with a lot of folks that would be a lot better off staying closer to home. So rethink your payscales and come up with something that would increase the QOL for the most of us.

(just my opinion of course..)

I don't think this is a good idea surgeons and dentist get paid by the job because the are providing a skill.

We should charge for our skills not our time.

Hell, we should all be independent contractors. That way we can negotiate our own pay rates instead of relying on ALPA to screw us.....

I disagree, I should get paid when I do the walkaround, preflight, calculating weight & balance, programing FMS, etc.

Pilots are pilots window heat pitot heat what's to eat. I wish that a 50 seat pilot could make the same as a 747 pilot but that would be to socialist for me. But if i think of a good idea how to pay for experience i will post it for the sake of a argument. A 747 generates more money for the company than a RJ so a pilot can fly one leg or several legs on a smaller jet to get paid a similar amount of money.

Big Brown and Purple drivers will all be screwed! :D

Yeah, but make it per parcel and you could retire by Christmas:)

Good point; I'd be happy with a set percentage for each ipod/iphone we ship... :D

Compensation driven by productivity , hmmm , you mean something like weight and speed or equipment differences pay. Your pay is to low.

I don't care as long as they pay me in singles so I can head right to the ABC club when I land in ANC.

Way too complicated, K.I.S.S. How about just a flat annual salary based on equip/position.

RJ FO $40k
RJ CA $80k
737/MD80 FO $80k
737/MD80 CA $140k

Longevity is still used for bidding lines and vacation. Working OT is paid at a daily rate instead of per hour. Similar to how fractional carriers work their pay. Thoughts?

I agree. Also, the greater responsibility involved in carrying more passengers greater distances is more reason why, "the bigger the plane, the bigger the pay". Our pay should start at scheduled sign in.
Experience wouldn't work because 1000 hours of straight and level airline flying does not even remote equate to 1000 hours of military fighter flying.

AMEN!!! I still think your FO rates are a bit on a low side, but it's a start.

Now... good luck convincing ALPA. They can't comprehend the concept that doesn't involve date-of-hire.

Yea, the FO rates should be a little higher but I was just tossing some numbers up for discussion. Longevity payscales are hurting us all. If people didnt have to start at 1st yr pay when they went to a new airline it would be much easier on the wallet to change airlines. This would force the carriers to create a good working environment in order to retain pilots. Wouldnt it be nice to have the ability to switch airlines if your company closed your hometown base?

That works. Just build in a cost of living and merit based pay increase and I'd sign up. The senior guys would still make more and work less and the junior guys would at least get something for their time.

No offense, but I hope you get somebody with a little better grasp of the English language to write this proposal. I'm not sure anybody would take your current attempt very seriously.

Your correct the military flying isn't worth as much.

I think many need to take a realistic look at the passenger side of the industry and realize that this is the new normal. I don't mean this as a slam on anyone's career, just a realistic observation of what the industry is compared to what it used to be.

The passenger airline business model of years past could support a labor force with good wages, benefits and QOL. That isn't the case anymore. There is way too much competition and not enough people willing to pay realistic fares.

The public doesn't want to spend $5 or $10 on a boxed lunch, and is even more upset with spending money to check in their bags. The last thing anyone wants is more nickel and diming by the airlines.

You can have the job wright up the proposal. Some people have ideas and some people wright up proposals they don't always work hand in hand.

If you guys get that then your driver's will demanded it and you will be in trouble:rolleyes:

Expirienced Based Pay
 

What determines expirience?
Years flying?

How about a list that gets you paid based on hours
250 hrs for commericial license
250 - 3000 Min pay $25/hour then $.03/ hour flown which ever is greater
(3000 hrs*.03= $90/hour)

3000-5000 Min pay $90/hr then $.025/hr flown which ever is greater
(5000 hrs *.025= $125/hr)

5000-10000 Min pay $125/hr then $.02/hr flown which ever is greater
(10000 hrs*.02= $200/hr)

10000-20000 Min pay $200/hr then $.013/hr flown which ever is greater
(20000 hrs *.013=$260/hr)

You top out at $260.

Need to have 2000 hrs to be a captain and get a 10% bump

Instead of pay raises based on years we get cost of living bumps.

Certain sized planes require certain levels of expirience (ex: 7000 hrs to FO a B-777 and so on)

This levels the playing field amongst the airlines. If you are a passenger you might pay to fly the airline with the expirience

These numbers are arbitrary but an example, pick your own numbers.

The guy who gave me my ATP checkride had over 66,000 hours logged and a picture of himself dropping a bomb on the battleship Yamato.
Yes that is expirience.
If you are a military guy you bring your time. Military guys get a little early compensation based on limited training costs (out of pocket), years of better pay on the way up. Yes heavy guys get more time than fighters guys. It might create more flow between airframes.
You sacrafice a little to live the dream of flying a fighter.

Lets see I would make 5232 * .02 = 104.64/hr

I have 17 years flying and make $60 per hour. That would be a $45/hr raise!!!. Yes I would like to get paid for expirience

Just a thought Boogie

I agree you should get paid more, but why should an airline hire a 17yr pilot when they can hire a 5yr pilot with half the experience (and half the cost under your rules) to do the job?

Boogie Nights

I like that you are adding to this thread. Good Job. Your idea could really level the playing field for pilots. Thanks for thinking about solving the problems of our industry we need more people like you.

This is what threads such as these remind me of:

Baseball. Specifically if guys in the minor leagues demanded that they somehow get paid to mirror what major league players made 20 years ago.

Very true... ;)

Actually, this isn't bad.. It is interesting. One thing about it, when the company starts screaming poor mouth about pilots' pay, we would be able to respond in public that (we) are the most "experienced" pilots and would have empiracle data to prove it. One thing that might be a fly in the ointment would be when you have a former military captain sitting in the left seat who brought 1500 miliitary hours to the game and took, oh say 5000 more to upgrade, and a commuter guy new hire who has 12,000 hours sitting to his right. But I think the base here is a nice outside the box thought.

Another thought on my expirience pay
 

If this was a national manditory pay rate. It would level the playing field among the airlines. Airlines could not come to us and say pilot pay is killing us because everyone would be paying the same. It would have to be poor management.
-Unions could focus on work rules (which should be their focus) and safety.
-Senior guys might work a little more to build time increasing productivity (at least till they max out the pay rate).
-Might reduce training cost as guys might be less likely to switch airframes when there is no $$ to do so.


B-

Reply to flyby
 

-Well precious few 17 years have 1,500 hrs for ATPs. Pilots will need certain amount of hours to fly certain size planes (remember). Unions would bring down the rath of the membership is they start letting senior guys go. Lastly the airlines would have a level playing field. I am sure Airlines with inexpirience pilots flying and crashing planes would generate lists and the public would know what airlines are safest.

Boogie Night, You and Freedom 421 are little to focused exclusively on the pilot group. You really need to appreciate that each company is very different in terms of viability in the market. Ultimately, you need to reconcile that very real business fact. Example:Southwest and UAL.
Additionally, specifically to pay: If industry charges a 'pilot surcharge' do you not think you would set the model for the very necessary mechanics? Can't fly planes without their skill. How about the flight attendants? Do you suppose the flight attendants will stand in solidarity with pilots making more under your proposal and they will sit it out? Nope, now the 'surcharge' is going to be in competition. How much to the pilots/flight attendants /mechanics and other employee groups? Really an acrimonious atmosphere. Now if you made the proposal to involve those employee groups, perhaps you could make it work.

The caveats are extraordinary though. Just sticking with the pilots, seniority is still necessary for bidding work at most airlines. Why? Most business' work that way. If you are paid by seat occupancy, the junior folks will be rather lowly paid in relation to the higher yield routes. If you consider that premise, the union is splitting itself up into haves and have nots. The senior make the junior folks poorer for same job. How will that play for unity and a strong contract? Would offer, not so much. Reason I think everyone says hourly rate. If you can work in the 'salary' equation proposed, that will mitigate to a degree the union division. What I think you should be doing with this creative and necessary thinking is encourage the union leadership to work in coalition to strategize a way that pilot unions back each other more effectively in contract talks tat carry leverage downstream.

Example: When times are good, all unions contractually forbid any 'pay for training' We all know how corrosive that is in our particular profession with regards to unity and future pay leverage (Tough to say we want x,y,z and management scoffs and says 'Don't need to, you will pay to get the job and their is a long out the door"

Next example: State that you pilot union has the contractual right to legally strike if any other employee group on the company property strikes. If the baggage loaders or mechanics strike. Guess what, the other unions have indeed grounded the airline and you don't have a repeat of the Northwest mechanics striking legally and the airline hired scabs. Imagine if the pilots had legally walked with that contractual clause. This happened at UPS in 1997. UPS settled and the unions were strategically more aligned helping the employee groups. You get the idea, you work to get strategic partners in the other airline employee groups where you work (flight attendants/mechanics,etc)

Summary: Protect most junior new hires from low pay and pay for training. Once those are in place, you are a more cohesive and unified bargaining unit. That produces real advances in quality of life and compensation as our starting points are all higher. Takes along time to coordinate everyone working towards including some of these contractual provisions . Industry wide union solidarity between ALPA, Teamsters and Independents critical to a professional success. Really though, you would need that to get you original proposal off the ground. Wish us all luck

Whatever the solution is, I believe you have an important point here. Mandatory pay rates across the board no matter the airline. Either a minimum pay, or a set payscale would require airlines to offer some benefits above the average to attract and retain pilots.