Rabid Seagull

I guess I'd have to bring my "strip-club" jar to work every day. I might have to give back $1 to every pax that didn't think my landing was "good enough", the ride was too bumpy, or that my 12,000 hours wasn't as "good as the guy who landed in the Hudson"

Back to ReasonableMan's thought. You seem to be hung up an the title of Airline Transport Pilot certificate. As others have said, focus on the hours or you could create a "Regional Airline Pilot" certificate.. you know one that's less then the current ATP, but much more then the 400 hours that some are getting hired at these days... and a card that's big enough to write all the limitations on the back.

HSLD

The bill is going through the house, then, who knows when it will reach the senate. If and when it becomes law, there are time constraints that the FAA will have to meet for implementation. After the NPRM is issued there will be a comment period.

Through the process, line pilots can always contact their congressional reps and make their feelings known.

To put this on the top of the ALPA (or any union) agenda, attend a local meeting and submit a resolution.

Thedude

I guess I forgot to mention its non-refundable ad smooth landings are extra.m

usmc-sgt

You seem to contradict yourself throughout your posts. I currently well exceed ATP mins and have taken 3 checkrides to ATP standards using ATP criteria. If I want to get the ATP before upgrading to Captain I will have to go rent a light twin for an hour or so for the checkride. How is renting a light twin for a few hours and spending $2000+ out of pocket going to make me a more competent airline pilot?

ReasonableMan

Good for you but you still don't have the rating. Also, multiple thoughts on a complex subject is possible you know. I dare not pose the question of why is it mandatory that a Captain have this rating. He/She is well beyond the requirements so what's the use (rhetorical).

At any rate, the requirements that make you eligible to earn an ATP rating is a definitive way to currently establish an industry standard. Hours are relative. 4000 hrs of straight and level airline flying does not in any way compare to 4000 hrs of military fighter flying. However, the FAA has gotten the ball rolling by taking the guess work out of it and establishing this rating (with requirements for those who hate the word rating). It's a starting point to solve a problem that should have never been allowed to begin in the first place. Sure, earning an ATP rating is not a life changing event, but the training and experience required to be eligible to receive the rating was!

tsquare

I find this very interesting that so many posters here have jumped on this guy with both feet so hard. When I read his post I didn't see anything subversive in a big picture kind of way. Yes this issue has been discussed elsewhere, but what did ReasonableMan say that is so offensive? You guys that hammered him about whether or not he is a pilot really confound me. He is talking about an issue that has a potential to get payrates up and you hit him in the head. In fact, if he weren't a pilot, you should want to buy the guy a beer. I didn't see any slams toward anybody.. oh I know we all get our panties in a bunch if someone infers that we did something unsafe, but who on here can honestly say that they have never done that? Fire away...

That being said though, ALPA will always negotiate from a position of weakness because of the RLA. The leverage of which you speak is a fly on an elephant. The company holds all the cards as long as this industry is viewed as crucial to the national economy, and knows that NO sitting president will allow a meltdown due to a pilots' strike.

tsquare

But where you the same as you were when you did your first walkaround of your first Cessna/T34? No. Of course not.

I don't have a problem with what you say here.

I think we need to be careful here. Since the government likes to kill mosquitos with flame throwers, all they have to do is count our commuting time towards duty time, and there are a whole lot of guys that are gonna be really screwed. I do agree with you that something need to be done, but in your case, it sounds like you need to negotiate this in your contract with your company. Are you on a classic 3 man airplane? When we had L1011s, the international guys had NO rest breaks, and THAT was ridiculuous. But we have duty day limits at DAL, and even the company cannot force you to go beyond them if you don't want to. Actually I prefer having it in MY contract than some sort of government mandate, that can be changed at a pilotical whim.

tsquare

It's not... no more than having a degree in underwater basketweaving from an accredited 4 year university would. Can I assume that you have no problem with THAT? But what he suggests is that it is another ticket you need to punch in order to get hired to do this job. It's a benchmark. I got my ATP from a puppy mill too. So what? You are right, the piece of paper itself does nothing from a safety perspective, but it is just another filter.

Sniper

Say, at the end of this statement, it ended with "I'm currently only licensed by the FAA as a private pilot". Would that change any opinions? Should it? By the logic I read here, if you think you could pass an ATP, that's as good as actually passing one. Is this conclusion is defendable?

An FAA rating is just a piece of paper. So is a college degree. It's not about the piece of paper, it's about the baseline level it establishes, the guaranteed minimum experience that the piece of paper represents.

Military pilots are not all equally skilled, but all employers know, if they hire a military pilot, they are getting a known standard. Perhaps they'll get someone who significantly exceeds the minimum, perhaps not. But they will get, at the very least, the baseline 'military pilot' - a certain skill set that includes demonstrated flying ability and leadership.

Same with an ATP. A pilot with an ATP has met a basic standard, a standard set by the FAA, and one that has been demonstrated, not just theorized. If a pilot doesn't have an ATP, we can speculate all we want about if they could pass an ATP ride, if they're as safe as an ATP, if they're as knowledgeable as an ATP, etc.

A sample of 100% ATP pilots is likely a statistically safer sample than one that is 100% full of pilots who "currently well exceed ATP mins and have taken 3 checkrides to ATP standards using ATP criteria" - but don't have an ATP. The license is called the Airline Transport Pilot license, not the Airline Transport Pilot in Command license. Why should only Airline PIC's have to have this license?

In the end, you're either an ATP - or you're not.

--
And since it seems to matter in this thread (though it shouldn't), I have an ATP and am an airline pilot

Freedom421

All Captains at airlines have ATP's. If their was a qualified Captain in the Colgan crash the FAA would not even be thinking of raising the hiring minimums. A Captain should be able to fly single pilot in a transport category aircraft. I guess the ATP will make the pilots equally qualified right. Well i hope equally qualified pilots will be paid equally.

If you want to improve safety checkrides should be flown without auto pilots. And Captain rides should be flown without flight directors. hours don't necessarily make better pilots skills do.

Auto pilots and flight directors are allowing pilots to fly aircraft that they might not be able to fly with out them.

I don't think raising the min's on FO's is the right thing to do. They should be raised on Captains.

The reason pilots want to raise the min's on new hires is they think this will raise the pay for pilots.

should the minimums be 250 hour no. should we make it more expensive for new hires to get a job no. If you guys want people to have atp flight time so be it.