Atp/alpa/faa
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 503
About 10 years ago, during a staff meeting, I proposed the idea of adding a surcharge to the pax ticket. It was $1 per hour of flight time per pax per flight crewmember. Meaning if you were on a 2 hour flight with 2 pilots in the cockpit it would cost each pax an extra $4. I think most pax would be more than happy to pay a mear $4 to get a "quality crew". It would basically cost the company nothing and give the crews a much needed raise. I was greeted with blank stares
I guess I'd have to bring my "strip-club" jar to work every day. I might have to give back $1 to every pax that didn't think my landing was "good enough", the ride was too bumpy, or that my 12,000 hours wasn't as "good as the guy who landed in the Hudson"
Back to ReasonableMan's thought. You seem to be hung up an the title of Airline Transport Pilot certificate. As others have said, focus on the hours or you could create a "Regional Airline Pilot" certificate.. you know one that's less then the current ATP, but much more then the 400 hours that some are getting hired at these days... and a card that's big enough to write all the limitations on the back.
#22
Through the process, line pilots can always contact their congressional reps and make their feelings known.
To put this on the top of the ALPA (or any union) agenda, attend a local meeting and submit a resolution.
#23
Are we there yet??!!
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,010
I guess I forgot to mention its non-refundable ad smooth landings are extra.m
#24
If you work for an AIRLINE that TRANSPORTS passengers in the capacity of a PILOT, you should be mandated by the FAA to have this rating (FO's and Captain alike). This needs to be at the forefront of ALPA'a agenda! You don't get the job unless you are qualified
What does the term "Airline Transport Pilot" mean? How is it even sane, let alone legal, to allow any pilot to fly passengers around without this Rating?
It's not about the rating, it's the experience that historically comes with requirements that make you eligible to earn the rating
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 101
You seem to contradict yourself throughout your posts. I currently well exceed ATP mins and have taken 3 checkrides to ATP standards using ATP criteria. If I want to get the ATP before upgrading to Captain I will have to go rent a light twin for an hour or so for the checkride. How is renting a light twin for a few hours and spending $2000+ out of pocket going to make me a more competent airline pilot?
At any rate, the requirements that make you eligible to earn an ATP rating is a definitive way to currently establish an industry standard. Hours are relative. 4000 hrs of straight and level airline flying does not in any way compare to 4000 hrs of military fighter flying. However, the FAA has gotten the ball rolling by taking the guess work out of it and establishing this rating (with requirements for those who hate the word rating). It's a starting point to solve a problem that should have never been allowed to begin in the first place. Sure, earning an ATP rating is not a life changing event, but the training and experience required to be eligible to receive the rating was!
#26
And yet you continue to miss the point. It's not about the rating, it's the experience that historically comes with requirements that make you eligible to earn the rating, hence why there are numbers attached to the rating. There are obviously exceptions to every rule however, the mass majority of pilots without that level of experience (according to research) is neither as knowledgeable nor capable as one with that level of experience. Thus, the industry would statistically be safer it this were a FAR.
Along the pay lines, because of the qualification, ALPA has more leverage to establish an "Industry Standard Pay" and not those (not all) greedy managers who are currently establishing it. There will be a definite line in the sand. Thoughts???
Along the pay lines, because of the qualification, ALPA has more leverage to establish an "Industry Standard Pay" and not those (not all) greedy managers who are currently establishing it. There will be a definite line in the sand. Thoughts???
That being said though, ALPA will always negotiate from a position of weakness because of the RLA. The leverage of which you speak is a fly on an elephant. The company holds all the cards as long as this industry is viewed as crucial to the national economy, and knows that NO sitting president will allow a meltdown due to a pilots' strike.
#27
Why is it unfortunate and why is it a safety reason? You seem to be throwing out buzzwords without really knowing anything specific. An ATP certificate is just another piece of paper and not some life changing event. I was the same guy the day after my ATP ride that I was before it.
With that being said, the mins to work for ANY airline need to be increased. So far the ATP has been put out there mainly because it is a benchmark sorts. It takes X amount of expeience to apply for one and a known set of standards to past the test. Its a start and nothing wrong with it. I also think 1200TT/200ME/500 PIC would be enough to hold an SIC position at a 121 company.
But FIRST the FAA needs to address the antiquated rest rules that all airlines operate under. Esp in the 121 Supp world. I bet you were probably not aware there is NO minimum duty day under 121 Supp International rules. Meaning you can be on duty for in excess of 24 hrs (and I have) but only be limited by flight time. Before you even ask, there are plenty of passenger carriers that operate under 121 Supp as well as cargo haulers. I would prefer to see the rest rules revamped to mirror something of the UK system. It is based on scientific reserach and limits the duty day based on report time and number of sectors. A better approach in my opinion.
#28
It's not... no more than having a degree in underwater basketweaving from an accredited 4 year university would. Can I assume that you have no problem with THAT? But what he suggests is that it is another ticket you need to punch in order to get hired to do this job. It's a benchmark. I got my ATP from a puppy mill too. So what? You are right, the piece of paper itself does nothing from a safety perspective, but it is just another filter.
#29
I currently well exceed ATP mins and have taken 3 checkrides to ATP standards using ATP criteria. If I want to get the ATP before upgrading to Captain I will have to go rent a light twin for an hour or so for the checkride. How is renting a light twin for a few hours and spending $2000+ out of pocket going to make me a more competent airline pilot?
An FAA rating is just a piece of paper. So is a college degree. It's not about the piece of paper, it's about the baseline level it establishes, the guaranteed minimum experience that the piece of paper represents.
Military pilots are not all equally skilled, but all employers know, if they hire a military pilot, they are getting a known standard. Perhaps they'll get someone who significantly exceeds the minimum, perhaps not. But they will get, at the very least, the baseline 'military pilot' - a certain skill set that includes demonstrated flying ability and leadership.
Same with an ATP. A pilot with an ATP has met a basic standard, a standard set by the FAA, and one that has been demonstrated, not just theorized. If a pilot doesn't have an ATP, we can speculate all we want about if they could pass an ATP ride, if they're as safe as an ATP, if they're as knowledgeable as an ATP, etc.
A sample of 100% ATP pilots is likely a statistically safer sample than one that is 100% full of pilots who "currently well exceed ATP mins and have taken 3 checkrides to ATP standards using ATP criteria" - but don't have an ATP. The license is called the Airline Transport Pilot license, not the Airline Transport Pilot in Command license. Why should only Airline PIC's have to have this license?
In the end, you're either an ATP - or you're not.
--
And since it seems to matter in this thread (though it shouldn't), I have an ATP and am an airline pilot
#30
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 48
All Captains at airlines have ATP's. If their was a qualified Captain in the Colgan crash the FAA would not even be thinking of raising the hiring minimums. A Captain should be able to fly single pilot in a transport category aircraft. I guess the ATP will make the pilots equally qualified right. Well i hope equally qualified pilots will be paid equally.
If you want to improve safety checkrides should be flown without auto pilots. And Captain rides should be flown without flight directors. hours don't necessarily make better pilots skills do.
Auto pilots and flight directors are allowing pilots to fly aircraft that they might not be able to fly with out them.
I don't think raising the min's on FO's is the right thing to do. They should be raised on Captains.
The reason pilots want to raise the min's on new hires is they think this will raise the pay for pilots.
should the minimums be 250 hour no. should we make it more expensive for new hires to get a job no. If you guys want people to have atp flight time so be it.
If you want to improve safety checkrides should be flown without auto pilots. And Captain rides should be flown without flight directors. hours don't necessarily make better pilots skills do.
Auto pilots and flight directors are allowing pilots to fly aircraft that they might not be able to fly with out them.
I don't think raising the min's on FO's is the right thing to do. They should be raised on Captains.
The reason pilots want to raise the min's on new hires is they think this will raise the pay for pilots.
should the minimums be 250 hour no. should we make it more expensive for new hires to get a job no. If you guys want people to have atp flight time so be it.