Zayghami

Isnt this why we have captains? People who have flewn type on the right seat for a couple houndred hours? Maybe they shouldnt upgrade captains who arent ready to be a captain...

Is building time in a Cessna 152 to meet atp mins going to make me a better first officer at a regional airline?

The problem is not having an atp or not having one, the problem is within the airline itself. Paying an airline pilot 19 dollars an hour is just ridiculous, I can make more money teaching a student pilot how to do stalls in a 172.

Mason32

Not all Captains have flown the right seat of the aircraft in which they are a Captain. In fact, it is not at all unusual to fly with a transition Captain who could have very few hours on the aircraft, while the FO has much more time in type... point in case... Colgan 3407. The CA had just over the minimum time in the Q400 to not be a high-min's Captain... while the FO had the majority of her flight time in type. Your assumtion is flawed. Somebody has to be in command of the aircraft, the reason the CA is the captain is not because he/she has flown that airplane more than you, it is because they have been around in a seniority based system long enough to accomplish two things: 1, it was their turn to upgrade; and 2, they demonstrated the decision making ability in all of their prior flying by not getting killed or violated to the point that they couldn't upgrade.

Yes, it will. I will guarantee you that in those 1,250 more hours you log, you will make thousands of decisions on your own; and you will do it with nobody else to rely on; and nobody else to fix your mistakes....

Then please stay a CFI teaching stalls. That is the way the MAJORITY of us made it to the flight decks. The pay will not change so long as they can put 190-250 hour wonder kids with SJS into our airplanes... it is just capitalism pure and simple.

Realistically, it is about time this requirement changed.... as has been said before; it is ridiculous that they can hire people at an AIRLINE to TRANSPORT people as a PILOT without requiring the AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT License. About time this gets changed.

BoilerUP

Is it really "diverting attention from reality"?

Was I any better a pilot the day I passed my ATP/CE500 type ride as I was the day before? No, not really - but I held a higher certificate in the eyes of the Administrator for meeting the published standards.

I don't challenge that requiring an ATP to be an airline pilot would, on the whole, provide a higher verifiable baseline vs. what current requirements are.

That doesn't change the fact that passing an ATP ride doesn't make you a better pilot, it doesn't make your ADM infallible and your situation awareness any keener, and it won't necessarily make an operation any safer than it is today.

And everybody likes to talk about the 250-300hr regional wunderpylot...I wonder exactly what percentage of pilots hired 2005-2008 by regional airlines had 300 or fewer hours. Further more, if those pilots were so unsafe when compared to pilots holding an ATP, why haven't there been more incidents/accidents directly related to sub-ATP minimum pilots?

Again, don't get me wrong...I don't think requiring airline pilots to hold an airline transport pilot certificate is out of line despite my not having one.

But let's call this what it really is - less an attempt to improve safety and more an attempt to artificially restrict the available pilot pool for entry-level airline jobs.

Mason32

correct, in your case it would make little difference except that it would show that you are capable, and have demonstrated, a higher level of precision flying by obtaining the ATP...

Yes, it is diverting attention from reality.

The airlines were not hiring guys like yourself who just hadn't taken the checkride until the next day, they were (and still will) hire the ones with 190-250 hours total time... and THAT is the reality.

Yes, and No... it doesn't make you a better pilot, but it does demonstrate the capacity of a higher level of precision flying than the commercial license.

Well, just having watched at a few of the regionals it seemed as if 1,000 was the magic number up until about 2006, then you started seeing the influx of bridge program kids with under 1,000 hours. If you kept an eye on the hiring minimums pages you watched in 2006 as the required hours to apply dropped and dropped and dropped, until by 2007 the minimums were back at ~500 hours for most places... by 2008 they were hiring with the ink still wet on the tickets with anywhere from 190-250 hours, and in some case the airlines were even paying them to go to jet transitions classes before attending their traingin programs...

as for why there haven't been more incidents? Perhaps you haven't been watching the news, but all but one of the last "major" accidents/crashes have been regionals.... ASAP reports are at the highest levels since it's inception, IOE times had gone from 25 hours and if not complete you are fired.... to in some cases over 90 hours of IOE instruction....

Well, I guess we can finally agree on something.

I have to disagree with that statement. I see this as correcting the regulations to what they should have said since the very begining.... There never was a push to correct the loophole (and that's what it is - a loophole) since in the past, with very rare exceptions, you didn't fly at part 121 airlines without an ATP that you obtained while flying cargo or 135 while you loged your thousands and thousands of hours to be able to apply for a jet job....

Freedom421

What would happen if a captain dies in flight and the fo does not have the automation in weather(kind of makes you think). Non flying FO's become non flying captains what happens when things go wrong and you have to hand fly but you have not done it in years.
Hand flying by people who do not hand fly is scary i will give you that. If people hand fly on a regular basis it is no different than with the auto pilot on. If people can hand fly their way through a checkride the passengers should be fine if the fo decided he wants to turn off the auto pilot to keep his skills sharp. The reason the airlines stress auto pilots so much is they are scared to let a 600 pilot fly with pax in the back with the auto pilot off. Captains sure don't want the fo's learning how to hand fly a jet on their ticket and they don't do it in training i sure hope they learn how to hand fly from watching the auto pilot fly. I don't want the CA's and FO's to turn off all the automation just the auto pilot. I an not anti auto pilot i just think guy's should be able to do the basics before they use the toys. Maybe if the pax start getting scared in the back with a 600 hour pilot flying up front hand flying airlines will pay more to get guys up front who can.

i don't want someone up front who cannot fly to ATP standards without the help of the auto pilot.
What you are saying is someone will build up their skills 3 month prior to a checkride. i want the skills their all the time.

2Co2Fur1EXwife

I always thought this was the biggest joke. How can you be equally qualified as an ATP when you took your check ride in a Duchess (as opposed to having the Airline pick up the tab and take the ride in an actual Transport category aircraft)

Mason32

It's probably harder to fly to ATP standards in that Dutchess.... alot more succeptible to wind and convection and with less capable equipment, probably no flight director, and much less performance....

the fact is that an ATP ride is about demonstrating your ability to learn an aircraft (be it a dutchess or an CRJ/ERJ) and master it in flight, and to fly it to ATP standards, not just commercial standards.

Freedom421

Does Automation allow a path for under experienced pilots to fly as crew members in the airlines?

SaltyDog

Absolutely not, but thanks for revealing your real motivation. Safety apparently is a cover screen

Not really Mason, an ATP was supposed to be about experience levels, not performance capability. That is the argument being brought up in this thread.

2Co2Fur1EXwife

I see your point, but then shouldn't it be based on weight/speed?? It's not about which is 'harder', its the type of flying
0-6K
6K-12K
ect......