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Should we learn from pilot protests in EU?
Pilots protest over flying hours
Airline pilots who say long flying hours are "putting lives at risk" are holding demonstrations across Europe. European air crew unions argue current rules that govern how long they can fly for are unsafe, with fatigue a factor in 15% of accidents. But the European Aviation Safety Agency says it is still considering a scientific report on the issue. There are no planned demonstrations in the UK, where industrial action by pilots is outlawed. But British pilots are expected to join demonstrations at major airports on the continent with colleagues from 35 other countries. It is not clear whether the action will cause disruption to travellers. In one demonstration outside the European Commission building in Brussels, TV pictures showed dozens of uniformed pilots and air crew holding placards and handing out flyers calling for a change in working conditions. Cost-cutting impact The rules are already in force in some EU countries, but are due to come into force in the UK in 2012. This is a defining moment in how passengers will be protected Jim McAuslan, British Airline Pilots Association Pilots and air crew have complained that their working conditions have deteriorated as the airline industry looks to cut costs. The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) said two million leaflets would be handed out across Europe by the protesters. The general secretary of Balpa, Jim McAuslan, said he feared that attempts by the EU to standardise working conditions by 2012 would put more pressure on pilots. He said: "Only fatigue experts understand the impact on a body of flying through so many time zones, having consecutive early starts and late duties and all the other factors that make up a pilot's life". Mr McAuslan told the BBC that while EU law meant a pilot could work up to 14 hours a day, scientists believe they should not exceed 13 hours. "Anything over that increases the risk of an accident by five and a half times," he said. "When that's brought home to the public, I hope the public will put pressure on the regulator to say 'you mustn't do this - you must listen to what science has been saying'." Safety is 'top priority' The President of the European Cockpit Association, Capt Martin Chalk, warned that "unless the EU acts now on information it already has, that it commissioned and that was delivered to it a year ago - unless it acts on that, unfortunately the safety levels we currently enjoy would be damaged". Pilots claim long duty hours are putting passengers in danger He was speaking to BBC Radio Five Live on Monday. A UK Department for Transport spokesman insisted that safety would not be compromised by the new rules. He said: "The European Aviation Safety Agency is in the process of considering the responses to its consultation on a first draft of rules establishing flight and duty time limits. "While these are unlikely to be finalised until some time in 2011, we are confident they will maintain the same high level of safety as the current rules. "The safety of passengers and crew is our top priority and we will not allow this to be compromised." |
Without knowing all the details, and not wanting to jump the gun here... does anybody know if they are talking about duty day or actual flight hours? 2 pilot operations? "Domestic"or international operations?
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Yes I absolutely think there is something to be learned from several pilot groups around the world from India to Europe trying to bring awareness to working conditions and pay. I believe ALPA should not only be proposing much more stringent work rules than what they just put out there but should be having marches and news media events to push the agenda at a time when people seem more willing to listen what with the Colgan accident and the publicity Sulley and Skiles brought. Unfortunately none of that seems to be happending. Not only is it not happening but "our" union, and I say that tongue and cheek" is proposing increasing flight times right along side the ATA. Sad.
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
(Post 689193)
Pilots protest over flying hours
Airline pilots who say long flying hours are "putting lives at risk" are holding demonstrations across Europe. European air crew unions argue current rules that govern how long they can fly for are unsafe, with fatigue a factor in 15% of accidents. But the European Aviation Safety Agency says it is still considering a scientific report on the issue. There are no planned demonstrations in the UK, where industrial action by pilots is outlawed. But British pilots are expected to join demonstrations at major airports on the continent with colleagues from 35 other countries. It is not clear whether the action will cause disruption to travellers. In one demonstration outside the European Commission building in Brussels, TV pictures showed dozens of uniformed pilots and air crew holding placards and handing out flyers calling for a change in working conditions. Cost-cutting impact The rules are already in force in some EU countries, but are due to come into force in the UK in 2012. This is a defining moment in how passengers will be protected Jim McAuslan, British Airline Pilots Association Pilots and air crew have complained that their working conditions have deteriorated as the airline industry looks to cut costs. The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) said two million leaflets would be handed out across Europe by the protesters. The general secretary of Balpa, Jim McAuslan, said he feared that attempts by the EU to standardise working conditions by 2012 would put more pressure on pilots. He said: "Only fatigue experts understand the impact on a body of flying through so many time zones, having consecutive early starts and late duties and all the other factors that make up a pilot's life". Mr McAuslan told the BBC that while EU law meant a pilot could work up to 14 hours a day, scientists believe they should not exceed 13 hours. "Anything over that increases the risk of an accident by five and a half times," he said. "When that's brought home to the public, I hope the public will put pressure on the regulator to say 'you mustn't do this - you must listen to what science has been saying'." Safety is 'top priority' The President of the European Cockpit Association, Capt Martin Chalk, warned that "unless the EU acts now on information it already has, that it commissioned and that was delivered to it a year ago - unless it acts on that, unfortunately the safety levels we currently enjoy would be damaged". Pilots claim long duty hours are putting passengers in danger He was speaking to BBC Radio Five Live on Monday. A UK Department for Transport spokesman insisted that safety would not be compromised by the new rules. He said: "The European Aviation Safety Agency is in the process of considering the responses to its consultation on a first draft of rules establishing flight and duty time limits. "While these are unlikely to be finalised until some time in 2011, we are confident they will maintain the same high level of safety as the current rules. "The safety of passengers and crew is our top priority and we will not allow this to be compromised." |
Absolutely. We can never stop learning.
In one of the most developed and advance countries in the world we are flying some of the oldest AC's and with some of the lowest salaries in comparison. No to mention 1960's flight rules. I just don't understand how come our union doesn't go PUBLIC with our work rules and compensation. There are some many media outlets to choose from. Who, reads the ALPA MAG other than pilots? A little more (ALPA) mucsle flexing would not hurt anyone.:cool: |
Originally Posted by Jack Bauer
(Post 689247)
Yes I absolutely think there is something to be learned from several pilot groups around the world from India to the UK trying to bring awareness to working conditions and pay. I believe ALPA should not only be proposing much more stringent work rules than what they just put out there but should be having marches and news media events to push the agenda at a time when people seem more willing to listen what with the Colgan accident and the publicity Sulley and Skiles brought. Unfortunately none of that seems to be happending. Not only is it not happening but "our" union, and I say that tongue and cheek" is proposing increasing flight times right along side the ATA. Sad.
I am very disappointed by ALPA's communication "efforts", both internally and to the public. In all fairness, I maybe going slightly overboard by criticizing something we hardly ever experience. It's a little like criticizing the lousy food at a lousy restaurant, where the service is so bad you don't even get lousy food to complaint about... One area in which we're not so bad: we have fairly strong legislative lobbying efforts. Maybe we figure the public actually doesn't matter? While courting senators may be the best bang for our buck, I still would prefer intelligent, timely, driven communications. As it stands now, we're barely playing defense, where I would actually like to see us mount an effective offense. If nothing else, it would make me feel better to have people I pay defend my profession. Being taken seriously will be one small step in re-building this profession (assuming it can be done). And while I'm at it, Prater needs to go. He delivered Age 65 for his friends; he can leave now. I'll support the PAC again once he's gone. |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 689258)
And while I'm at it, Prater needs to go. He delivered Age 65 for his friends; he can leave now. I'll support the PAC again once he's gone. John Prater never once twisted my arm for a pro age 65 vote. He, nor anyone else, made any attempt to influence the committee. My roll call vote was insignificant in general assembly, and I must admit that it is possible that Prater politic'd long and hard for changing ALPA's stand, but the vote would never have gone to the floor if my delegate committee had not made a positive recommendation and I will again assure you that John Prater made no attempt to get the ten of us to vote either way. BTW, we decided to remove our support for age 60 simply because we looked at the evidence and decided that the FAA administrator (and Presidential administration) had already made up her mind to change the rule. The only way to have any influence on the final language was to end our oppostion and send our lobbyists in to work for us. The APAAD and associated groups were going for RETROactive re-instatement of over age 60 pilots. How would you have liked that? |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 689244)
Without knowing all the details, and not wanting to jump the gun here... does anybody know if they are talking about duty day or actual flight hours? 2 pilot operations? "Domestic"or international operations?
Fred |
There is a lot to learn from Europe and striking is one of them. Here is what happened today in Brussels - you can't make this stuff up:
"Over 2,500 farmers from across the EU burned tires and hay outside an emergency meeting of farm ministers. They sprayed milk from huge canisters, and the cow's udder, on a square close to the meeting. The jittery cow was frightened by firecrackers, sprang loose and chased an office worker down the street before it was recaptured by the farmers. The farmers used heavy tractors to block major highways into Brussels and streets in the urban center, creating traffic chaos for dozens of miles outside the city for much of the day, keeping tens of thousands of commuters moving at a snail's pace. Farmers' demonstrations have often been violent in the past and there was a massive police presence that further choked roads throughout the capital." Also, a couple of months ago, I believe it was the CEO (or someone close to that rank) of Caterpillar in France was taken hostage for several hours when he announced lay offs. He was on the evening news after being released - it was hilarious to see his facial expression - I am sure he will think twice next time before making any announcements. |
Originally Posted by bubi352
(Post 689496)
There is a lot to learn from Europe and striking is one of them. Here is what happened today in Brussels - you can't make this stuff up:
"Over 2,500 farmers from across the EU burned tires and hay outside an emergency meeting of farm ministers. They sprayed milk from huge canisters, and the cow's udder, on a square close to the meeting. The jittery cow was frightened by firecrackers, sprang loose and chased an office worker down the street before it was recaptured by the farmers. The farmers used heavy tractors to block major highways into Brussels and streets in the urban center, creating traffic chaos for dozens of miles outside the city for much of the day, keeping tens of thousands of commuters moving at a snail's pace. Farmers' demonstrations have often been violent in the past and there was a massive police presence that further choked roads throughout the capital." Also, a couple of months ago, I believe it was the CEO (or someone close to that rank) of Caterpillar in France was taken hostage for several hours when he announced lay offs. He was on the evening news after being released - it was hilarious to see his facial expression - I am sure he will think twice next time before making any announcements. |
Originally Posted by bubi352
(Post 689496)
There is a lot to learn from Europe and striking is one of them. Here is what happened today in Brussels - you can't make this stuff up: [I]"Over 2,500 farmers from across the EU burned tires and hay outside an emergency meeting of farm ministers. They sprayed milk from huge canisters, and the cow's udder, on a square close to the meeting. The jittery cow was frightened by firecrackers, sprang loose and chased an office worker down the street before it was recaptured by the farmers. The farmers used heavy tractors to block major highways into Brussels and streets in the urban center, creating traffic chaos for dozens of miles outside the city for much of the day, keeping tens of thousands of commuters moving at a snail's pace... Remember that at any given time there is somebody on strike somewhere in Europe! :( It's all fun and games until you get stuck in some God forsaken little French village because the farmers at some local farm market demand even higher subsidies on their already exorbitantly subsidized produce. Solution? Just block one of the main interstates until you get what you want and when that's resolved, let the next farming commune do it all over again. Protests and demonstrations? You bet ya! Cave in to the French redneck (or redcork?) farmer thugs? No way!!! |
Originally Posted by skybolt
(Post 689463)
I was one of ten board members sitting on the committee that approved the resolution that ultimately went before the entire ALPA Executive Board.
John Prater never once twisted my arm for a pro age 65 vote. He, nor anyone else, made any attempt to influence the committee. My roll call vote was insignificant in general assembly, and I must admit that it is possible that Prater politic'd long and hard for changing ALPA's stand, but the vote would never have gone to the floor if my delegate committee had not made a positive recommendation and I will again assure you that John Prater made no attempt to get the ten of us to vote either way. BTW, we decided to remove our support for age 60 simply because we looked at the evidence and decided that the FAA administrator (and Presidential administration) had already made up her mind to change the rule. The only way to have any influence on the final language was to end our oppostion and send our lobbyists in to work for us. The APAAD and associated groups were going for RETROactive re-instatement of over age 60 pilots. How would you have liked that? skybolt vbmenu_register("postmenu_31566", true); Gets Weekends Off Joined APC: Nov 2005 Posts: 234 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...cons/icon1.gif CAL newhire insurance ? It is my understanding that CAL offers COBRA to it's newhires. How much does that COBRA costper month, for a family of five? I can find a way to work for first year pay, but not if I have to pay COBRA at the rates my current employer charges for a family. Thanks in advance, Skybolt |
Skybolt,
It sounds like your buddy Prater got you a job after you sold your soul to ALPA. Do you like Continental Airlines? Was it more satisfying to get a job on your own, or was it better to have the elmer fudd look alike help you? |
Italy... when one group in the transport union goes on strike... all sections of the trasnport group local to the area go on strike.
Same in Spain. France... well can you say "Wild Cat Strike"? On evening, we sat on the gound in Spain in the Spring of 2008 for two hours waiting to fly to the UK. Will it work in the US? Not a prayer. When one airline goes on strike... the vultures from the other carriers circle the future carcus just waiting for the pickings. When it comes to unity amongst pilots??? the US is at the bottom of the barrel on that subject. The only group, in recent years that actually had the balls to stand up to management were the Amerijet Pilots. |
Originally Posted by all4114all
(Post 689551)
Skybolt,
It sounds like your buddy Prater got you a job after you sold your soul to ALPA. Do you like Continental Airlines? Was it more satisfying to get a job on your own, or was it better to have the elmer fudd look alike help you? |
Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 689570)
Italy... when one group in the transport union goes on strike... all sections of the trasnport group local to the area go on strike.
Same in Spain. France... well can you say "Wild Cat Strike"? On evening, we sat on the gound in Spain in the Spring of 2008 for two hours waiting to fly to the UK. Will it work in the US? Not a prayer. When one airline goes on strike... the vultures from the other carriers circle the future carcus just waiting for the pickings. When it comes to unity amongst pilots??? the US is at the bottom of the barrel on that subject. The only group, in recent years that actually had the balls to stand up to management were the Amerijet Pilots. Your should have added a few other parts to your statement above. You could have said in these countries when a group goes on strike other groups can legally go on strike also. In the US it is illegal to take such job actions. Its a huge distinction. I am constantly amazed at how many pilots have never read the Railway Labor Act and can be so unimformed when it comes to the right to strike for any activity that falls under the RLA. |
Too Tired to Fly: European Pilots Want Shorter Shifts - Yahoo! News Too Tired to Fly: European Pilots Want Shorter Shifts By LEO CENDROWICZ / BRUSSELS – 36 mins ago Most of us have endured days at work when a combination of long hours and little sleep tests our ability to stay awake. Usually, the worst thing that happens is you snooze on your keyboard for a bit and are woken up by your boss. For airline pilots, however, the consequences of falling asleep on the job are far more serious. Pilot fatigue can, and does, cost lives. It is thought to be the main reason a commuter plane crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., earlier this year, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground. Why, then, would the European Union allow pilots and cabin crews to work up to 14 hours straight? For unions representing pilots and flight attendants, the E.U.'s failure to lower working hours in line with scientific advice is inviting tragedy. "Do we need to wait for another accident?" says Captain Martin Chalk, president of the European Cockpit Association (ECA), which represents 38,200 pilots. To protest what they see as a dangerous gamble with passengers' lives, thousands of pilots and flight attendants on Monday handed out 100,000 dummy tickets to passengers at airports across Europe, each containing fake departure and arrival points like "Awake City" and "Sleeping Island" and warnings about the risks that passengers face when pilots and cabin crew members are fatigued. (See pictures of the Buffalo crash.) Chalk, who flies Boeing 747s, says pilot fatigue is behind 15% to 20% of all fatal aircraft accidents, but he admits it is impossible to be precise. "Although the effects of fatigue are as damaging as the effects of alcohol, there is as yet no test to determine the level of fatigue in a human, in the way there is for alcohol and drugs," he says. However, research conducted by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration shows the risk of flying accidents to be 1.7 times greater when flight crew shifts are between 10 and 12 hours and 5.5 times greater for shifts of 13 hours or more. And a recent survey of more than 1,400 flight crew members by the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration revealed that 80% of them admitted to "nodding off" during a flight. Monday's protest comes a year after the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), the E.U.'s air-safety advisory board, issued a scientific study, known as the Moebus Report, warning of the dangers of the E.U.'s new rules on flying hours. The regulations, introduced in July 2008, stipulate that pilots work up to a maximum of 14 hours during the day and nearly 12 hours at night. The Moebus Report recommends that the maximum lengths of shifts be lowered to 13 hours during the day and 10 hours at night. It also says that the current maximum of 180 accumulated flying hours in 21 days is too much and calls for a limit of 100 hours over 14 consecutive days. (Read "Air Traffic Control: Be Careful Out There.") But the Association of European Airlines (AEA), a lobbying group that represents 33 of the top airlines in Europe, believes the report was based on "flawed science with recommendations which have no safety justification." It estimates that changing the regulations would cost airlines nearly $1.5 billion in extra costs per year. Although the airline industry has been hit hard by the global financial crisis, ECA secretary general Philip von SchÖppenthau says the airlines shouldn't be ignoring safety concerns in order to save money. "Yes, stricter fatigue rules - as recommended by the scientists - might cost money. But safety always has a price," he says. He points out that after the Buffalo disaster, U.S. authorities moved swiftly to overhaul U.S. flying-time regulations, and the FAA is due to propose new rules by the end of the year. (Read "Surviving Crashes: How Airlines Prepare for the Worst.") Right now, each European country can set flying-time standards that differ from the new E.U. rules. In Britain, for example, pilots are forbidden from flying more than 900 hours over the course of a year in order to prevent fatigue. But in 2012, the E.U. regulations will come into force for all member states. EASA says the Moebus Report will form the basis of negotiations between the unions and airlines as it decides what the minimum and maximum shift times should be. But no decision is expected for some time. For pilots, however, the issue is already pressing. With so much at stake, they felt that handing out dummy tickets to passengers at terminals on Monday would be a relatively mild disruption to travelers - one they could probably deal with. Currently, a 121 Supplemental 3 man crew (2 pilots and a FE, so nobody is resting) can have an 18 hour duty day, 12 hours aloft, and 8 hours of of 'flight deck duty' (FAR 121.507). If 13 hours of duty is 5.5 times more likely to result in an accident, want to guess what 18 hours is? And that 18 hours doesn't start until you're reporting "for duty for the purposes of flight". The ALPA handbook explains in Q-82 that if you're deadheaded from SLC-HNL, and then you fly HNL to ?, "the duty time for the crew . . . [starts] at Honolulu.":eek: It's time for a change. 13 hour max duty day, and I'm glad to see @ least ALPA is supporting it (Do either IBT or CAPA have any official support position? Were they part of the ARC too?). |
Originally Posted by Sniper
(Post 689741)
Where can I find this FAA study that says accident risk is 550% higher after a duty day of over 13 hours? Both the FAA and the EASA studies seem to say, quite clearly, that a duty day of over 13 hours is unsafe.
Currently, a 121 Supplemental 3 man crew (2 pilots and a FE, so nobody is resting) can have an 18 hour duty day, 12 hours aloft, and 8 hours of of 'flight deck duty' (FAR 121.507). If 13 hours of duty is 5.5 times more likely to result in an accident, want to guess what 18 hours is? And that 18 hours doesn't start until you're reporting "for duty for the purposes of flight". The ALPA handbook explains in Q-82 that if you're deadheaded from SLC-HNL, and then you fly HNL to ?, "the duty time for the crew . . . [starts] at Honolulu.":eek: It's time for a change. 13 hour max duty day, and I'm glad to see @ least ALPA is supporting it (Do either IBT or CAPA have any official support position? Were they part of the ARC too?). |
Originally Posted by all4114all
(Post 689545)
Your post below skybolt a few years ago: it appears you are a johnny come lately.
skybolt vbmenu_register("postmenu_31566", true); Gets Weekends Off Joined APC: Nov 2005 Posts: 234 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...cons/icon1.gif CAL newhire insurance ? It is my understanding that CAL offers COBRA to it's newhires. How much does that COBRA costper month, for a family of five? I can find a way to work for first year pay, but not if I have to pay COBRA at the rates my current employer charges for a family. Thanks in advance, Skybolt Later on, I moved up in ALPA. What's your point? |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 689591)
Your should have added a few other parts to your statement above. You could have said in these countries when a group goes on strike other groups can legally go on strike also. In the US it is illegal to take such job actions. Its a huge distinction. I am constantly amazed at how many pilots have never read the Railway Labor Act and can be so unimformed when it comes to the right to strike for any activity that falls under the RLA.
BTW... supporative strikes in Europe are not always legal... they are tolerated... and like here, there's nothing the government can do about it. |
Polite Revisionism, Revisionism Nonetheless
Originally Posted by skybolt
(Post 689463)
I was one of ten board members sitting on the committee that approved the resolution that ultimately went before the entire ALPA Executive Board.
John Prater never once twisted my arm for a pro age 65 vote. He, nor anyone else, made any attempt to influence the committee. And neither do you. My roll call vote was insignificant in general assembly, and I must admit that it is possible that Prater politic'd long and hard for changing ALPA's stand, but the vote would never have gone to the floor if my delegate committee had not made a positive recommendation and I will again assure you that John Prater made no attempt to get the ten of us to vote either way. It's of no consequence to me what action he did or did not take in front of your committee. I don't know what the exact role of that committee was, and quite frankly, I don't care to visit the minutiae of how he and his peers got Age 65 pushed through. Suffice to say his position was absoultely clear. BTW, we decided to remove our support for age 60 simply because we looked at the evidence and decided that the FAA administrator (and Presidential administration) had already made up her mind to change the rule. The only way to have any influence on the final language was to end our oppostion and send our lobbyists in to work for us. The APAAD and associated groups were going for RETROactive re-instatement of over age 60 pilots. How would you have liked that? Legislators and the Executive chnaged their mind, not because they have any interest in the issue, and certainly not because of any public interest, because of intense lobbying by certain groups. Previously, whenever said lawmakers turned to us on this issue, and in the absence of any public will to raise the retirement age, the union stood firm, and said groups were indefinitely delayed in their efforts. When the signal came that the union would turn, and Woerth abstained on the ARC, there was no reason to deny the requests of the (very active, and growing) minority that wanted a higher retirement age. I won't deny that they were driven by the failure of pension plans and other finanical hardships, but I refuse to believe the soft revisionism that lets you agrue the change came from outside the group. At any rate, Prater has delivered on his promise to the older guys that got him elected. For the sake of unity among all pilots, and for the sake of finding a better, more effective person to advance the profession, I say it's time for this pony to go, his single trick having been performed. |
If they do they'll be sorry
Originally Posted by 2Co2Fur1EXwife
(Post 689537)
The Europeans take no crap; airline employees in Athens have stormed onto runways and shut down the airport in protest in the past. we just seem to bend over and take it; and that's why management gives it to us. Congress is dumbfounded; after all these years about 'commuter' pilots and will now probably invoke a knee-jerk reaction that will make commuter lives very difficult in the years to come. There is a show on television that sums it all up, its called American Greed. The almighty dollar; people in this county stop at nothing; ethics go out the window. Bottom line: if a saves a buck, so be it until blood spills and they are forced to change things
They make try to make commuters lives tough. If they do they will disrupt the industry as a whole. So many people commute. We should just take some personal pride and not push it too hard when trying to get to work. Note: I commute across the country West coast to East Coast |
In Europe, many citizens have gotten something straight.
The governments fear the people. In the good ole USA; the people fear the government. |
Curious, what provisions are there the EU pilot groups must go through before striking? Anything as restrictive as the RLA?
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