Way to go Delta (Taxiway Landing)
10-21-2009, 06:24 AM
#161
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Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by goaround2000
Yeah, about that. You're going to have to provide a source for this. I can tell you right off the bat you're not going to find one, but indulge me. Where is the data that supports that less experience = higher risk? You forget per the LOSA studies (both first gen and second gen), it's quite the opposite, as complacency is still the biggest cause of accidents/incidents in our industry as whole, and again per the information provided by both the LOSA studies and the boeing studies, skill level and experience plays a minimal factor on complacency.
You clearly forgot were you came from brother. I remember when you were still here with us, and you were singing a different tune. Or do you actually believe you became a better pilot when you put on the Northwest wings?
You clearly forgot were you came from brother. I remember when you were still here with us, and you were singing a different tune. Or do you actually believe you became a better pilot when you put on the Northwest wings?
I did not forget where I came from, and I never said anything different then what I'm saying now. It's pure fact that there is more experienced pilots at the Mainline level. You might note that I mentioned in my previous post that mistakes happen at all levels. My time at NWA has made me a more experienced pilot. Has it made me a better pilot? I don't claim that it has, and I make mistakes just like any other pilot. I'll NEVER be immue to that, and I remember that everyday.
This was never a Regional vs Mainline thread to me, I was just simply pointing out that the OVERALL experience level at Mainline carriers is higher then Regionals.
10-21-2009, 06:39 AM
#162
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: CRJ200 Capt.
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by Sink r8
For once, I can agree with Joe: there should be no double-standard. Regionals and Majors need to be judged by the same criteria.
Let me repeat that: Regionals and Majors need to be judged by the same criteria. In all respects. The best way to do this is to have them be one and the same, and stop subsidizing a JV team. When pilots are ready for airlines, they need to be very carefully scrutinized, and placed on probation for an entry position at a major airline, with throrough HR departments, thorough Flight Ops vetting, and thorough training and evaluation, not at some alter-ego entity that has none of the above.
Then, they can evolve into a company that does the same across all employee groups, and fields the safest product, and best service available.
Let me repeat that: Regionals and Majors need to be judged by the same criteria. In all respects. The best way to do this is to have them be one and the same, and stop subsidizing a JV team. When pilots are ready for airlines, they need to be very carefully scrutinized, and placed on probation for an entry position at a major airline, with throrough HR departments, thorough Flight Ops vetting, and thorough training and evaluation, not at some alter-ego entity that has none of the above.
Then, they can evolve into a company that does the same across all employee groups, and fields the safest product, and best service available.
I know it comes across bad...but I've never been one to sugarcoat things...This double standard is the root problem, and I don't see it changing anytime soon....
10-21-2009, 06:44 AM
#163
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: CRJ200 Capt.
Posts: 822
Originally Posted by johnso29
A source? Go back and look at the last 10 fatal 121 accidents and tell me who's involved. I'm pretty sure that Regionals will be in more of the fatal accidents. And how does more experience equal more complacency? The fact is that there is more experience on the Mainline level then the Regional level. There is NO denying that.
I did not forget where I came from, and I never said anything different then what I'm saying now. It's pure fact that there is more experienced pilots at the Mainline level. You might note that I mentioned in my previous post that mistakes happen at all levels. My time at NWA has made me a more experienced pilot. Has it made me a better pilot? I don't claim that it has, and I make mistakes just like any other pilot. I'll NEVER be immue to that, and I remember that everyday.
This was never a Regional vs Mainline thread to me, I was just simply pointing out that the OVERALL experience level at Mainline carriers is higher then Regionals.
I did not forget where I came from, and I never said anything different then what I'm saying now. It's pure fact that there is more experienced pilots at the Mainline level. You might note that I mentioned in my previous post that mistakes happen at all levels. My time at NWA has made me a more experienced pilot. Has it made me a better pilot? I don't claim that it has, and I make mistakes just like any other pilot. I'll NEVER be immue to that, and I remember that everyday.
This was never a Regional vs Mainline thread to me, I was just simply pointing out that the OVERALL experience level at Mainline carriers is higher then Regionals.
If mainline pilots were flying these 6 and 7 leg days in the weather we would see more incidents and accidents from them...
I am a big believer in experience....but I am growing tired of the mainline is better and the constant mantra of these accidents wouldn't happen with mainline pilots....This incident proves that BOTH major and regional pilots make STUPID mistakes....This one could have been much worse....
10-21-2009, 06:54 AM
#164
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: B-777 F/O
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by AirbusA320
Appears to be a dumb mistake made under pressure. Pilot's are suppose to handle pressure.
Will Delta fire the pilots?
Will Delta fire the pilots?
Training is all. It's called "Strange Field Familiarization"
10-21-2009, 07:31 AM
#165
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: ERJ145 Captain
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by johnso29
A source? Go back and look at the last 10 fatal 121 accidents and tell me who's involved. I'm pretty sure that Regionals will be in more of the fatal accidents. And how does more experience equal more complacency? The fact is that there is more experience on the Mainline level then the Regional level. There is NO denying that.
I did not forget where I came from, and I never said anything different then what I'm saying now. It's pure fact that there is more experienced pilots at the Mainline level. You might note that I mentioned in my previous post that mistakes happen at all levels. My time at NWA has made me a more experienced pilot. Has it made me a better pilot? I don't claim that it has, and I make mistakes just like any other pilot. I'll NEVER be immue to that, and I remember that everyday.
This was never a Regional vs Mainline thread to me, I was just simply pointing out that the OVERALL experience level at Mainline carriers is higher then Regionals.
I did not forget where I came from, and I never said anything different then what I'm saying now. It's pure fact that there is more experienced pilots at the Mainline level. You might note that I mentioned in my previous post that mistakes happen at all levels. My time at NWA has made me a more experienced pilot. Has it made me a better pilot? I don't claim that it has, and I make mistakes just like any other pilot. I'll NEVER be immue to that, and I remember that everyday.
This was never a Regional vs Mainline thread to me, I was just simply pointing out that the OVERALL experience level at Mainline carriers is higher then Regionals.
Ok let's go by your logic, since you didn't provide a source to back up your statement. World-wide, out of the last 10 fatal accidents only 2 were regionals based on the time line. In the US based on the last 10 fatal accidents only 4 were regionals: Comair 5191, Pinnacle 3701, Corpex 5966, and Colgan 3407; using your logic that's 4 out of 10, which means the majors must be more dangerous
(Also an erroneous conclusion)!Now let's get something out of the way first, no one is arguing that the level of experience at the majors is greater than that of the regionals...of course it is; but your blanket statement was that "less experience = higher risk (less safe)". Again, I offer you the LOSA study as proof that your assessment is wrong. According to the first generation LOSA study complacency continues to be our greatest enemy industry wide, and it's even more prevalent as pilots gain more experience. In fact inexperience has not even been listed by the NTSB as a casual factor on any accident/incident over the course of the past 9 years, however there was complacency and non-compliance in most accident/incident reports that included majors, cargo, corporate, and regional.
Again, please list a source, and/or scientific study that backs up the claim that less experience = higher risk, because that's what you said in your original post. Experience is a great asset in the cockpit, but history and science have shown that it is our tendency as humans to get complacent as we gain more experience, and the problem is industry wide.
No one is better than anyone, and if someone has hard evidence of the opposite please feel free to post it.
10-21-2009, 07:36 AM
#166
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: F-4 Wild Weasel
Posts: 361
Bottom line is: There was a Checkairman and two pilots there. Would you assume one would've spoke up and said "umm, that looks like blue lights, not white lights" Emergency or not, It should've never happened. I guess everyone just went up 3 numbers.
Last edited by DWN3GRN; 10-21-2009 at 07:37 AM. Reason: added text
10-21-2009, 07:39 AM
#167
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by goaround2000
Ok let's go by your logic, since you didn't provide a source to back up your statement. World-wide, out of the last 10 fatal accidents only 2 were regionals based on the time line. In the US based on the last 10 fatal accidents only 4 were regionals: Comair 5191, Pinnacle 3701, Corpex 5966, and Colgan 3407; using your logic that's 4 out of 10, which means the majors must be more dangerous (Also an erroneous conclusion)!
(Also an erroneous conclusion)!What were the other six of ten fatality accidents in the US, and how many were majors?
And aren't you omitting the Mesa/AirMidwest 1900 in CLT in your count?
10-21-2009, 07:41 AM
#168
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: DA50EX
Posts: 240
NTSB - Accidents Involving Passenger Fatalities - U.S. Airlines (Part 121)
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Paxftl35.htm
Here's a list from the NTSB looks pretty accurate just to add some facts to this debate.
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Paxftl35.htm
Here's a list from the NTSB looks pretty accurate just to add some facts to this debate.
Last edited by FlyingChipmunk; 10-21-2009 at 08:01 AM.
10-21-2009, 07:47 AM
#169
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by FlyingChipmunk
NTSB - Accidents Involving Passenger Fatalities - U.S. Airlines (Part 121)
Here's a list from the NTSB looks pretty accurate just to add some facts to this debate.
Here's a list from the NTSB looks pretty accurate just to add some facts to this debate.
10-21-2009, 07:48 AM
#170
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Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Right...CL65
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by goaround2000
Ok let's go by your logic, since you didn't provide a source to back up your statement. World-wide, out of the last 10 fatal accidents only 2 were regionals based on the time line. In the US based on the last 10 fatal accidents only 4 were regionals: Comair 5191, Pinnacle 3701, Corpex 5966, and Colgan 3407; using your logic that's 4 out of 10, which means the majors must be more dangerous (Also an erroneous conclusion)!
(Also an erroneous conclusion)!Flyingchipmunk, that list shows Regionals having a pretty good record compared to majors except for the last few on there. Hmm, either way fox news said it. Now if we could just get Chuck Norris to come and redeem us all.
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