Why would anyone talk to the NTSB?
#11
Don't say anything, if you do your only giving away free information to be used aginst yourself. When the FAA wants a written statement keep it simple, electrical malfunction, when communication was restored we landed. Don't give them ammunition to use aginst you. The less said better, these poor guys crusified themselfs. Not to say what happened is okay but years with a unblemished record and then to lose everything over one incident, I don't agree with.
#12
One of the best class I had to take during my aviation career was Aviation Law, taught by Dr. Crooks. We went into stuff like this in detail, and I learned a huge amount that will help me in dealing with issues like this.
#15
Its routine for Delta to suspend a crew when a incident happens. There really is no other option. Are they going to let them fly there next trip? The suspension in most cases works in the pilots favor. Delta suspends the pilot and sends them back to the school house for a couple of sims and retraining. When the FAA has its hearing Delta shows the steps they have taken and training the pilots have received and that is often the end of the story. The pilots go back to the line and everyone is happen. Its a system that has worked well and saved a lot of pilots from much worse punishments from the FAA.
On the subject of the role of the company, FAA and NTSB in actual accident investigations I can tell you that you have the priorities wrong. With the company and FAA the number one priority is reduce our legal liability. The 2nd priority is reduce our legal liability. The actual truth and cause of the accident are way down the priority list. The NTSB is supposed to be neutral and seek the cause of the accident. In reality they come under enormous pressure from the Airline, aircraft builder, FAA and any other party that might get sued. The pressure? Reduce our legal liability. If you seeing a trend here you will start to understand the process.
On the subject of the role of the company, FAA and NTSB in actual accident investigations I can tell you that you have the priorities wrong. With the company and FAA the number one priority is reduce our legal liability. The 2nd priority is reduce our legal liability. The actual truth and cause of the accident are way down the priority list. The NTSB is supposed to be neutral and seek the cause of the accident. In reality they come under enormous pressure from the Airline, aircraft builder, FAA and any other party that might get sued. The pressure? Reduce our legal liability. If you seeing a trend here you will start to understand the process.
Cheap insurance.
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
My best bud is a criminal defense attorney. He will preach say "absolutely nothing" for as long as anyone will listen. Watch the video and take it to heart! NOTHING GOOD CAN EVER HAPPEN BY TALKING TO THE AUTHORITIES! Know your rights and keep your mouth shut. It may save you from crucifiction some day even if you are completely innocent of any wrong doing.
#17
Yet his message came through loud and clear! However it could just be that he hammered the same point over and over
#18
In any accident investigation, you know each group's role. The company is looking to improve safety, but they also are looking at discipline issues. The FAA is looking to improve safety, but they also are looking at certificate issues. The NTSB, they are supposed to be Switzerland. They have no other role but to improve safety, they don't care about discipline or certificate issues.
You know that you can tell the NTSB anything and it will only be used for one thing: to enhance safety. Spill your guts, tell all your secrets, be totally honest.
Well at least that's how it used to be. The ink wasn't even dry on the statements of the NWA 188 pilots before the NTSB goes blabbing to everyone who will listen. I thought this was supposed to be a safety investigation and not another episode of Jon and Kate + 8. How did the NTSB's actions do ANYTHING to improve flight safety?
I don't want to argue about the aircrew's actions or inactions, that has been beat to death.
What I would like to know is why anyone would want to talk to them ever again? If the NTSB will publish my statement whenever they feel like it, shouldn't I just say, "Hey, talk to my lawyer, and then leave the room."
This is either a monumental blunder on the part of the NTSB, or they have decided that they want to just examine bent pieces of metal and write off any input from pilots. I don't trust them now and I will not trust them until they either fix this mess or until Congress puts laws in place to tie their hands.
I am wondering if anyone else feels the same way.
You know that you can tell the NTSB anything and it will only be used for one thing: to enhance safety. Spill your guts, tell all your secrets, be totally honest.
Well at least that's how it used to be. The ink wasn't even dry on the statements of the NWA 188 pilots before the NTSB goes blabbing to everyone who will listen. I thought this was supposed to be a safety investigation and not another episode of Jon and Kate + 8. How did the NTSB's actions do ANYTHING to improve flight safety?
I don't want to argue about the aircrew's actions or inactions, that has been beat to death.
What I would like to know is why anyone would want to talk to them ever again? If the NTSB will publish my statement whenever they feel like it, shouldn't I just say, "Hey, talk to my lawyer, and then leave the room."
This is either a monumental blunder on the part of the NTSB, or they have decided that they want to just examine bent pieces of metal and write off any input from pilots. I don't trust them now and I will not trust them until they either fix this mess or until Congress puts laws in place to tie their hands.
I am wondering if anyone else feels the same way.
First I do agree that the NTSB should be a neutral entity at all times in the interest of safety.
That being said, what is there to investigate? These two guys normalized deviance to the point that the F-16s were almost deployed! They screwed up! The only bad guy(s) here are the two guys that decided that playing with their computers was more important than monitoring the basic functions of our job, not the NTSB. I don't care if they were looking up ways to donate money to Jerry's kids! A lot of you guys here seem to want to point fingers. The NTSB, the FAA, and the company should make examples out of these two guys. Again, there is no possible excuse for this level of stupidity on the flight deck, I don't care how good of aviators or people these two guys are. So if the NTSB decides to crawl up their rear ends to illustrate the difference between outcome based vs. risk based safety, then by all means, here's a jar of vaseline have fun Ms. Hersman!
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
So I guess I'll be that guy and state the obvious.
First I do agree that the NTSB should be a neutral entity at all times in the interest of safety.
That being said, what is there to investigate? These two guys normalized deviance to the point that the F-16s were almost deployed! They screwed up! The only bad guy(s) here are the two guys that decided that playing with their computers was more important than monitoring the basic functions of our job, not the NTSB. I don't care if they were looking up ways to donate money to Jerry's kids! A lot of you guys here seem to want to point fingers. The NTSB, the FAA, and the company should make examples out of these two guys. Again, there is no possible excuse for this level of stupidity on the flight deck, I don't care how good of aviators or people these two guys are. So if the NTSB decides to crawl up their rear ends to illustrate the difference between outcome based vs. risk based safety, then by all means, here's a jar of vaseline have fun Ms. Hersman!
First I do agree that the NTSB should be a neutral entity at all times in the interest of safety.
That being said, what is there to investigate? These two guys normalized deviance to the point that the F-16s were almost deployed! They screwed up! The only bad guy(s) here are the two guys that decided that playing with their computers was more important than monitoring the basic functions of our job, not the NTSB. I don't care if they were looking up ways to donate money to Jerry's kids! A lot of you guys here seem to want to point fingers. The NTSB, the FAA, and the company should make examples out of these two guys. Again, there is no possible excuse for this level of stupidity on the flight deck, I don't care how good of aviators or people these two guys are. So if the NTSB decides to crawl up their rear ends to illustrate the difference between outcome based vs. risk based safety, then by all means, here's a jar of vaseline have fun Ms. Hersman!
#20
You may think you'd never ever screw up to the extent these guys did, and you're *probably* right. There's a pretty good chance you'll screw up in some form over the course of your career, though. When you do, you'll care about due process. The whole point of due process is that it's applied to everyone equally, including those you'd prefer to crucify.
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09-26-2008 06:59 AM