Why would anyone talk to the NTSB?
 

In any accident investigation, you know each group's role. The company is looking to improve safety, but they also are looking at discipline issues. The FAA is looking to improve safety, but they also are looking at certificate issues. The NTSB, they are supposed to be Switzerland. They have no other role but to improve safety, they don't care about discipline or certificate issues.

You know that you can tell the NTSB anything and it will only be used for one thing: to enhance safety. Spill your guts, tell all your secrets, be totally honest.

Well at least that's how it used to be. The ink wasn't even dry on the statements of the NWA 188 pilots before the NTSB goes blabbing to everyone who will listen. I thought this was supposed to be a safety investigation and not another episode of Jon and Kate + 8. How did the NTSB's actions do ANYTHING to improve flight safety?

I don't want to argue about the aircrew's actions or inactions, that has been beat to death.

What I would like to know is why anyone would want to talk to them ever again? If the NTSB will publish my statement whenever they feel like it, shouldn't I just say, "Hey, talk to my lawyer, and then leave the room."

This is either a monumental blunder on the part of the NTSB, or they have decided that they want to just examine bent pieces of metal and write off any input from pilots. I don't trust them now and I will not trust them until they either fix this mess or until Congress puts laws in place to tie their hands.

I am wondering if anyone else feels the same way.

+1
There WILL be a lot of airmen (at least those with a shred of self preservation) who will look any FED (FBI, local cops, TSA, or agents from CONTROL) in the eye, and rightly proclaim "before making any official statement, I wish to exercise my rights to legal council with my union representative". Has anybody else noticed the grammatical errors in the certificate revocation letters that have been made public. And who is 'northwestern airlines'? And when, exactly, was the last time any certificate revocation letter made the news headlines. I suppose the said airmen can take comfort that their certificate numbers were redacted two of the three places that they were published. Can you say "identity theft"? This smacks of the same FAA that pulled Bob Hoover's certificate...I'll gladly point out that the circumstances were drastically different, however....The FEDs decided on a course of action BEFORE the facts were gathered, and due process was allowed to take it's course. That's what really ticks me off with respect to this event...
Chuck

Well the way this was all so hastily done I think the pilots will have no trouble winning their certificates (and possibly jobs) back on appeal. Perhaps it was done like that on purpose to make the public feel warm and fuzzy but not actually hang these two pilots out to dry.

Not that I'm condoning what they did, but I can't say I would have made them lose everything either.

Good post. When people ask me what I think really happened (which seems to be about twice a day:mad:), I tell them that the pilots only made one critical error; opening their mouths- oh, and leaving their transponder on ;)

Anyone with an ALPA card, read the back!

FSAP ans ASAP are great tools for the industry to recognize trends and bootstrap those stats back into training or new regulations. The price of self-disclosure was that the FSAP data wouldn't be used to punish a crew (provided the deviation was covered).

After the latest high-profile incident, one thing is for certain. All crews should know the words: "No Comment"

Keep your mouth shut and call your union, and your company.

If I remember what I've read about administrative law and the FAA's revocation process, an emergency ticket-punching is for ongoing conduct that poses an imminent hazard to life or property. Pretty sure that they're caught they won't be doing that conduct anymore, and Deltawest have suspended them from further flight ops — they did this BEFORE the FAA got the shredder out.

Call your union, your company, and your AOPA Legal Services Plan attorney (you are a member, right? :cool: )

WOW! What a great video. You learn something new every day!!!

Denny

Its routine for Delta to suspend a crew when a incident happens. There really is no other option. Are they going to let them fly there next trip? The suspension in most cases works in the pilots favor. Delta suspends the pilot and sends them back to the school house for a couple of sims and retraining. When the FAA has its hearing Delta shows the steps they have taken and training the pilots have received and that is often the end of the story. The pilots go back to the line and everyone is happen. Its a system that has worked well and saved a lot of pilots from much worse punishments from the FAA.

On the subject of the role of the company, FAA and NTSB in actual accident investigations I can tell you that you have the priorities wrong. With the company and FAA the number one priority is reduce our legal liability. The 2nd priority is reduce our legal liability. The actual truth and cause of the accident are way down the priority list. The NTSB is supposed to be neutral and seek the cause of the accident. In reality they come under enormous pressure from the Airline, aircraft builder, FAA and any other party that might get sued. The pressure? Reduce our legal liability. If you seeing a trend here you will start to understand the process.

The FAA has been doing emergency revocation for about everything for years. The stated goal is to prevent you from doing the same thing again. What happens is pilots who fly for a living can't make any money and fold during appeal process.

What you have to remember is flying is not a right but a privilege governed under administrative law. The deck is stacked against you from the start.

Don't say anything, if you do your only giving away free information to be used aginst yourself. When the FAA wants a written statement keep it simple, electrical malfunction, when communication was restored we landed. Don't give them ammunition to use aginst you. The less said better, these poor guys crusified themselfs. Not to say what happened is okay but years with a unblemished record and then to lose everything over one incident, I don't agree with.

One of the best class I had to take during my aviation career was Aviation Law, taught by Dr. Crooks. We went into stuff like this in detail, and I learned a huge amount that will help me in dealing with issues like this.

Always remember to lawyer up when you are invited for coffee and donuts with Fred T. Rukus of the FAA;).

That professor on the video reminds me of John King when he's "teaching" his aviation courses. I do believe that he took a breath around the 14:30 timeline in the tape. :p

Yep. And the AOPA membership is there to cover YOUR own, individual ass. Because where the Company's liability ends, yours begins - and don't count on the Company covering for you just because their name is on the side of the aircraft.

Cheap insurance.

My best bud is a criminal defense attorney. He will preach say "absolutely nothing" for as long as anyone will listen. Watch the video and take it to heart! NOTHING GOOD CAN EVER HAPPEN BY TALKING TO THE AUTHORITIES! Know your rights and keep your mouth shut. It may save you from crucifiction some day even if you are completely innocent of any wrong doing.

Yet his message came through loud and clear! However it could just be that he hammered the same point over and over :D

So I guess I'll be that guy and state the obvious.

First I do agree that the NTSB should be a neutral entity at all times in the interest of safety.

That being said, what is there to investigate? These two guys normalized deviance to the point that the F-16s were almost deployed! They screwed up! The only bad guy(s) here are the two guys that decided that playing with their computers was more important than monitoring the basic functions of our job, not the NTSB. I don't care if they were looking up ways to donate money to Jerry's kids! A lot of you guys here seem to want to point fingers. The NTSB, the FAA, and the company should make examples out of these two guys. Again, there is no possible excuse for this level of stupidity on the flight deck, I don't care how good of aviators or people these two guys are. So if the NTSB decides to crawl up their rear ends to illustrate the difference between outcome based vs. risk based safety, then by all means, here's a jar of vaseline have fun Ms. Hersman!

You may think you'd never ever screw up to the extent these guys did, and you're *probably* right. There's a pretty good chance you'll screw up in some form over the course of your career, though. When you do, you'll care about due process. The whole point of due process is that it's applied to everyone equally, including those you'd prefer to crucify.

There is a world of difference between an honest mistake and gross negligence. Safety is and should always be risk based, not the "but hey, we landed safely" approach that some take in our industry.

Long,.. But great video/advice for on and off the job. Talking to cops, etc. cannot help you!!!

AMEN!

For those of you who havent watched a full public hearing on a crash, I strongly suggest you take the time to watch one. The first three players: the company, the aircraft manufacturer, and the FAA. The company says our system is blessed by the FAA, so it isn't our fault. The manufacturer says, the FAA certified the plane, so it isn't our fault. ANd the FAA says, we are the government, we are never at fault.

IF the pilots were union or have the money for a private lawyer, only then do they get representation. And since the other three already have an out, guess who must prove their innocence?

Just to emphasize on the original point even more. The NTSB did this with the Buffalo crash as well.

Was there any need for the full uncensored version of the CVR to be made public the way it was made? They could have cut the convo where it wasn't needed to make the point.

They defamed two pilots who were already dead and had enough bad rap as it is. What they did is nothing short than spitting on someone's grave.

I agree. The NTSB in the Buffalo crash was making speculative comments about ice as being a possible cause three days after the crash. They had no idea and had no business making those sorts of speculaive comments. Those types of comments are better left to the office chair type rated newscasters. There seems to be a shift in modus operandi regarding public announcements at the NTSB recently, and it's doing exactly what we thought. Pilots are now afraid to speak with the one group that at one point represented safety.

A compelling and convincing argument.

But now I'm worried my lobster might be too short.

Thats good stuff.

I too am concerned about the release of recordings and statements by the NTSB. I thought CVR tapes were not be released, and releasing the statements before the INITIAL INVESTIGATION is hardly begun won't promote cooperation. If the NTSB wants us to help them promote safety, they ought to at least make us think they're impartial. Robert Sumwalt, retired USAir pilot and member of the NTSB is no friend of ours. If I didn't know better, I'd think he's got a personal vendetta against airline pilots.

The FAA has always been able to prosecute pilots with NTSB reports. They just recently started to do it. The bottom line is don't talk to the government without representation.

I would take this a step further and say "don't talk to the government." They cannot physically compel you to say anything and if you do not say anything then you will never lie. Being uncoopertive can be an effective defense, especially if the they have little or no physical evidence or testimony.

Until your captain flips and rats you out for leniency!
:eek:

True, but you deal with him later. In the real world. ;)