ERJ135

Pulled this from another. Thought some ppl might be interested.

This was posted on our union discussion forum. I don't know the
> validity of the information.
>
> __________________________________________
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I had a one hour conversation with Tim Cheney yesterday and would like
> to shed some light on what happened to cause the over flight of their
> destination, MSP.
>
> Before I begin with details, I wanted to say right up front that
> although there are many events that helped to cause this, Tim takes
> full responsibility and places no blame on anyone but himself. He is
> very humbled by what has happened and fully understands that as
> captain, he was responsible for the a/c, crew and passengers. That
> said, he wanted me to know how it all happened. Secondly, he has the
> full support of his neighbors in Gig Harbor , WA , as well has his
> church parishioners. One of his neighbors wrote a letter to the Star &
> Tribune in Minneapolis saying how great a family the Cheney's were, I
> agree.
>
> On their flight from San Diego to Minneapolis , after passing Denver ,
> the f/a called the cockpit to let them know Tim's crew meal was ready.
> Tim was the "flying pilot" on this leg, so he told his F/O that when
> the f/a brings the meal up, he will step back to use the restroom.
> When Tim returned, the F/A left the cockpit and he began to eat his
> crew meal. When a pilot leaves to use the restroom, it is customary
> for the other pilot to brief him on his return on "any changes", such
> as altitude, heading, course changes or atc center frequency changes,
> etc. In this instance, nothing was said....even though the f/o had
> received a frequency change. The problem that occurred was that the f/
> o never got a response on the new frequency....it was not the correct
> frequency....it was a Winnipeg Canada Center Freq.
>
> Now, Denver Center is trying to get a hold of them because they never
> checked in, because the f/o had dialed in the wrong freq......that is
> who called them so many times....but, then there was a shift change at
> Denver Center and no one briefed the new controller that there was a
> NORDO A/C (non communications) in their airspace....so, in actuality,
> atc basically "lost" this a/c.....see Wall Street Journal article below.
>
> Tim told me he heard atc chatter on the speaker and so never thought
> they were out of radio range.....but, of course, they were hearing
> pilots talk on Winnipeg Center . For non-pilots.....when we don’t hear
> anything for a long while...we ask atc if they are still
> there....sometimes they are and sometimes you are out of their area
> and need to find a new frequency. With this chatter going on, there
> was no concern that they were not being controlled.
>
> Then Tim told the f/o that the new bidding system was horrible and
> that his November schedule was not what he hoped for. He mentioned
> that his son was going into the Army in Dec. and he wanted certain
> days off so he could see him off.....the f/o said he could help him,
> he knew more about the new bidding system. Tim got his lap top out and
> put it on his left leg and showed the f/o how he bid. He told me he
> had his lap top out for maybe 2 minutes. Then the f/o said that he
> would show him how to do it on his laptop. He had his laptop out
> maximum of 5 minutes.
>
> Let's also add the 100 kt tail wind that they had to the discussion,
> not helping matters.
>
> The f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone(no they did not kick
> the door, no, no one was sleeping, no, no one was fighting) and asked
> when they will get there. They looked at their nav screens and were
> directly over MSP. Because they had their screens set on the max, 320
> kt setting, when the f/o called on the frequency, which of course was
> Winnipeg Center , he saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They
> asked where they were and the f/o told them over Eau Claire , which
> was not even close, but MSP had disappeared from the screen even
> though they were right over the city.
>
> They were, as you all know, vectored all over the sky to determine if
> they had control of the a/c and Tim kept telling the f/o to tell them
> they have control they want to land at MSP, etc. They landed with
> 11,000 pounds of fuel (no they did not come in on fumes, but had 2
> hours in an A320) and not but 15 minutes past schedule, even though
> they left San Diego 35 minutes late due to an atc flow restriction.
>
> In the jet-way awaiting them were FBI and every other authority you
> can imagine.
>
> Aftermath and tidbits:
>
> Although these pilots filed an NASAP Report, which was designed to
> have pilots tell the truth about events, so the FAA could learn from
> them, they had their licenses revoked by the ATL F.A.A. even before
> they came out of their meeting with NTSB and NASAP meetings.
>
> ATL FAA is really big on this new regulation which will allow pilots
> to take a short nap in flight so they will be rested for the
> approach...they were insistent that they were sleeping.
>
> MSP FAA, Vance (do not know last name) was the person who handed Tim
> his revocation letter(which was leaked to the entire world by the ATL
> FAA). Tim said Vance had tears in his eyes and walked away, said
> nothing. It was later learned that the entire MSP FAA office did not
> agree at all with revoking their pilot's licenses, but had no
> jurisdiction over the matter, since ATL FAA had control because of
> Delta.
>
> The pilots have been to Wash. D.C., ATL and MSP for several meetings.
> In ATL, they met with the chief pilots and Tim said they could not
> have been nicer. They are working to resolve this, not to try and fire
> them. But of course, they will have to get their license back for
> Delta to consider allowing them to continue flying. The appeal has
> been files for the FAA to reinstate their licenses or to settle on
> some form of punishment, etc.
>
> When Tim and his wife were in MSP for a meeting with the NTSB, they
> happen to be staying at the same hotel as the NTSB was. The next
> morning in the lobby, the NTSB official came over to Tim and said he
> did not know why they even called them in for this event. There was no
> safety issue. Also, MSP Center informed Delta that there never was a
> problem and no aircraft were near their plane. Even though no radio
> communications, they had been followed and separated.
>
> Yes, the company tried to contact them on ACARS, but the 320 does not
> have a chime...it has a 30 second light which then extinguishes.
> Tim always has 121.5 tuned, but as we all know as pilots, it can get
> very noisy at times and we turn it down and sometimes forget to turn
> it back on. He told me this may have been the case.
>
> So there were so many factors which helped to cause this episode.
> Anyone would have likely prevented it.....properly checking in on the
> new frequency would have been the first one.....
>
> A note about laptops.....in NWA's A.O.M (I think it stands for
> airman's operation manual), it does not say we can't use a laptop,
> however in Delta's A.O.M., it does, we are transitioning now and we
> actually have pages from both airlines. When our union showed this to
> the attorney's, they could not believe the confusion put on our pilot
> group. But, D.C. F.A.A. put out a new possible ruling which will
> disallow all laptops......so stupid, don't they know Jet Blue has
> laptops on every aircraft and soon all airliners will for the
> electronic Jepp charts.
>
> These are the facts and again, Tim said he feels very bad for the
> company and the pilots and is hoping for a positive outcome on their
> appeal. With 24 years at NWA, 21,000 blemish free hours, it would be a
> mistake to ruin his career over this in my opinion.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Mike
> F.A.A. Fails to brief new controller on duty (WSJ Article)

iaflyer

It's a nice story that in my opinion, fails in several parts:

First:

> Tim told me he heard atc chatter on the speaker and so never thought
> they were out of radio range.....but, of course, they were hearing
> pilots talk on Winnipeg Center

I know when I'm doing the radios, even if I hear other aircraft talking, if I don't hear the controller, I start querying ATC. Anyone with 21,000 hours would know that you can get out of range of the transmitter but still hear other aircraft. Also, if you hear other pilots calling "Winnipeg center", but you are over Denver - something isn't right - start asking questions.

Second, it is required to monitor 121.5 - any Captain worth his salt would make sure that's happening. The one or two times I've lost contact ATC , calling Center on 121.5 has gotten a response in under 30 seconds.

Third, the story fails to explain an hour of time, between flying over Denver and the crew passing MSP. The person who wrote the story is telling me a crew, who spent a maximum of 7 minutes on their laptops, failed to notice that they passed their TOD, flew all the way to MSP, and flew PAST MSP while they weren't doing something else?

While they it has been said they had a 100 knot tailwind, their ground speed was only 500-520 knots (from Flightaware's flight track). In ten minutes, they would only travel 85 miles.

Like I said, a nice story that fails to cover an hour or so of the flight, and provides no explanation of why they missed their TOD and the whole arrival.

In the end of the day, it's unacceptable to miss your descent and overfly your destination by a large distance, no matter what the reason.

homer j

This still isn't the truth. Unless we've entered the twilight zone, there's no way two pilots with their level of experience were nordo for 90 minutes. They fell asleep, and should have just said so from the beginning.

StormChaser

> The f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone(no they did not kick
> the door, no, no one was sleeping, no, no one was fighting) and asked
> when they will get there. They looked at their nav screens and were
> directly over MSP. Because they had their screens set on the max, 320
> kt setting, when the f/o called on the frequency, which of course was
> Winnipeg Center , he saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They
> asked where they were and the f/o told them over Eau Claire , which
> was not even close, but MSP had disappeared from the screen even
> though they were right over the city.
>
> They were, as you all know, vectored all over the sky to determine if
> they had control of the a/c and Tim kept telling the f/o to tell them
> they have control they want to land at MSP, etc. They landed with
> 11,000 pounds of fuel (no they did not come in on fumes, but had 2
> hours in an A320) and not but 15 minutes past schedule, even though
> they left San Diego 35 minutes late due to an atc flow restriction.

That explanation doesn't match with the actual flight track in the least. They weren't "directly over MSP" considering their turn around was over north central Wisconsin. And while they did get out of San Diego 35 minutes late, they arrived in Minneapolis 1 hour and 7 minutes late, not 15 minutes past schedule.

FlightAware > Northwest Airlines Inc. #188 > 21-Oct-2009 > KSAN-KMSP

> Yes, the company tried to contact them on ACARS, but the 320 does not have a chime...it has a 30 second light which then extinguishes.

While there is no chime, the 30 second light claim is false. If a company message is received, it is indicated on the upper ECAM and remains until the message is viewed on one of the MCDU units.

Still too many things that don't add up even in this supposed claim of the truth.

Fly4hire

Please tell us the truth. I'm glad you've proclaimed the case solved, on the Internet no less.

I suppose you have not considered they'd have been better of had they in fact fallen asleep, given the emphasis on fatigue, duty times, and it would have been unintentional?

CloudPilot57

A few ATC transcripts here...

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...nt/2009-10-23/

newKnow

Where does it say they didn't hear the controller? Winnepeg is right up the road from MSP and coming from that diresction at FL 300+ (I don't know the exact FL that were at), I could believe that they heard aircraft and controler talking.


I don't understand how you proclaim the story fails when the first admission in it is that the captain takes full responsibility and knows it was his fault.

What more do you want?

acl65pilot

That is a personal letter that should not have been shared.

newKnow

There is a lot in there that I hope will be ignored....

luvflyer69

Sounds like spin contro to me!