TonyWilliams

A good strategy? Odds of winning? I like how the FO has more "wiggle" room for blame, at least according to him.


Northwest pilots blame air traffic controllers | Comments | Top AP Stories | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle


The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis have blamed air traffic controllers in part for the incident, saying controllers violated procedures.
Capt. Timothy Cheney, 54, of Gig Harbor, Wash., and First Officer Richard Cole, 54, of Salem, Ore., said in documents filed Nov. 24 with the National Transportation Safety Board that controllers didn't follow rules and practices contained in the Federal Aviation Administration's air traffic control manual and didn't coordinate effectively with Northwest dispatchers. The documents don't offer any details on those violations.
Cheney and Cole are appealing the Federal Aviation Administration's revocation of their pilots' licenses. The pair were out of radio contact for 77 minutes on Oct. 21 as their plane carrying 144 passengers flew more than 100 miles past Minneapolis. The Airbus A320 was over Wisconsin before controllers were able to re-establish contact.
The pilots later told authorities they had been working on crew scheduling on their laptops and didn't realize they had missed their destination until a flight attendant using an intercom asked when the flight would be landing.
Cole also said in his filing that he shouldn't be punished or his punishment should be mitigated because he relied on Cheney as the pilot in command of the aircraft to fulfill his responsibilities.
Both pilots had extensive flying experience and told investigators they had had no previous incidents or violations. Cheney was hired by Northwest in 1985 and had about 20,000 hours of flying time, about half of it in the A320. Cole had about 11,000 hours of flight time, including 5,000 hours in the A320.
FAA revoked their licenses six days after the incident. The agency said the pilots violated numerous federal safety regulations, including failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.
Doug Church, a spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, declined to comment, citing the union's status as a party to the NTSB's investigation of the incident.
FAA officials have said controllers repeatedly tried unsuccessfully to contact Northwest Flight 188 as it flew from San Diego across a broad swath of the continent. They've also said there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact.
The pilots' appeals will be heard by an NTSB administrative law judge. No date has been set, but both pilots have asked for at least 90 days to gather information.
Immediately following the incident, Cheney and Cole were suspended by Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest in 2008. Delta spokesman Anthony Black said Monday the airline is cooperating with NTSB investigators as well as conducting its own investigation.

FPG120

That's their defense?

I think they need new lawyers.

The last time I checked, it is the responsibility of the pilot in COMMAND to make sure that he is in control of the aircraft's destiny.

I love the way the F/O threw the CA under the bus. Teamwork...

My earlier opinion stands.

80ktsClamp

I think they'll get their licenses and jobs back... the FAA really jacked up revoking their certificates before the ASAP committee even had time to meet. Absolutely rediculous on their part.

That should make ALPA's job a bit better if these guys dont screw it up for them....

USMCFLYR

Standard American defense coming into play.
It isn't my fult - it is someone elses' responsibility.
AT LEAST they used the words "in part"
Truthfully - I think they would fair much better accepting their responsibility and asking for mitigation base on their perfromance records up to the time of this incident. Basically a - "Yes - I messed up defense and I'm willing to take my lumps, but this shouldn't ruin my career after a clean 20,000/11,000 hour and however many years of employment."
IMO.

USMCFLYR

KC10 FATboy

I'm not going to defend what these guys did or didn't do. However, perhaps the ATC controllers are partly at fault? Maybe they did not follow the proper procedures. And if so, should they lose their licenses as well or should these guys receive theirs back?

In any accident or incident, there is always a chain of events that lead up to the main event.

And we all should know to never say "that can't happen to me" because we know damn well it could. We're all human and we all make mistakes.

Finally, there is a silver lining in this incident. It exposed some flaws that still exist in the coordination between ATC and NORAD. Not going to get into details ... this isn't the place. But I can say that the questions have been asked and the people in charge were hammered. Why do you think you are hearing ATC on guard so aggressively when someone misses a radio call? Change.

Packer Backer

The problem is that the more chatter we start to hear on guard, the lower the volume gets and the more we tune it out. All 121 airplanes should be required to have a satphone or at least an acars that sounds some sort of chime.

BoredwLife

I think that possibly one of them will prevail, maybe both. The way in which the revocation was handled was absolutly horrible.

Whether or not the deserve to win is a totally different story.

But I agree with USMC, they could have choosen a better defense.

KC10 FATboy

I always keep guard at a level where you can hear it just loud enough to make things out, but not loud enough to be annoying.

In my military plane, things don't get interesting until you are using/listening to two UHF radios (one with guard on, both using secure communications or anti-jam equipment), two VHF radios, an intercomm, and maybe an HF radio. Good times ... not! Thank God for engineers.

rickair7777

I think they will prevail...this never should have been a revocation in the first place.
There was no significant intentional misconduct, nobody got hurt, and nothing got broke. It should have stopped with the asap ERC.

DWN3GRN

The guys were sound asleep and they know it. Don't give me this Laptop crap. I mean just listen to the tapes, the Capt or F/O whoever transmitted to ATC sounds like he just woke up. They should be 709'd all the way back to Private. my $.02

Rant over