ToiletDuck

When's the last time there was an incident where the word "fatigue" wasn't used? Now I'm sure there are a couple but it does feel that word is being overused as of late. I don't like it being used as a catchall. Loses it's credibility.

USMCFLYR

I've said the exact same thing before TD. It becomes the 'boy that cried wolf' scenario. People will start to ignore the real problem.

USMCFLYR

757upspilot

Just write pay protection into the contract, we did. Weather, company, mechanical etc, pay protected.

Riddler

APA, ALPA, IPA, Teamsters, etc. haven't been able to outpolitic ATA. Until that happens, expect pilots to remain scapegoats for their failure to call in fatigued. Management always benefits when pilots fly fatigued. When they successfully land, then management pats itself on the back for being sufficiently staffed. When fatigued pilots have incidents, then management blames the pilots for choosing to fly fatigued. Management always wins these ones because the unions are weak and management retains plausible deniability.

scarface

Calling in fatigued would be a good solution in an ideal world. I'm sure managements concern is that a liberal policy in that direction would put them with a knife to their throat during times of labor unrest. Writing a set of laws that would cover all areas of airline ops would be tough. When I flew commuters, many years ago, we had long duty/flight hour days in basically equipped airplanes sometimes in bad weather, but they were on the front side of the clock so they were not the mind numbing, brain cell robbing kind of fatigue that sets in flying less duty time and in highly automated airplanes on the back side of the clock.
A few years ago I was having a conversation with a fairly high ranking Fed and fatigue was discussed. He stated the FAA didn't have to address those issues when the unions were strong because the labor contracts handled duty time problems quite handily, ie the ball is in the industry's court.

ToiletDuck

Can't we just say a bad landing was made? I don't know the specifics but we're talking a night landing in a stormy area so why not just say it was a bad landing?

USMCFLYR

The safety officer in me would be required to ask WHY was there a bad landing made. It isn't good enough to just admit circumstances conspired to ruin the landing. WHAT caused those circumstances. As you noted earlier though - fatigue getting thrown about in every case is really watering down a serious issue IMO.

USMCFLYR

jayray

Maybe it's because fatigue really is an issue in most incidents/accidents.

HalinTexas

How 'bout: Don't land with a tailwind on a contaminated runway?

Before you jump on me, I've a couple thousand hours on the -800 and many landings, recently, in KIN.

Fatigue is an issue, but not a cause. A 12 hour duty day, ending at 2130 EST, isn't that long of a day.

There are pics out there, in bright daylight, showing the aftermath. I suspect the rest of the industry will have to pay for this somehow, just like the NWA over-flight.

Pay by the duty-hour.

gettinbumped

Because we don't know anything yet. Could it have been a hydraulic or brake failure? Let's just wait and see what comes out of the investigation before we say ANYTHING.