Widow's Son

AV8raa,

The holier than thou, men versus boys, machines versus toys, attitude is a lot to blame for the current stagnant state of the legacy carriers and your airline in particular. Crandall gave you guys the chance to keep the RJ's in house and you guys were too proud. You would have had much more control over them in-house and had a lot more jobs and growth.

The demarkation line between an "RJ" and a "mainline" aircraft is quickly disappearing. Is it the number of seats or who is operating the aircraft that determines its category?

What is the difference between a CRJ90 and one of NWA's 40 year old DC-9's?

What if a regional carrier flys mainline jets ala Independence?

What if a major flys RJ's ala JetBlue?

You guys used to fly Fokkers that many consider to be RJ's.

There are RJ's who use jetways and mainline jets using airstairs at BUR, ONT, and other places.

What's the difference between an RJ flying a long, thin, domestic routes and taking flying from the mainliners, and a 757 flying long, thin, international routes and taking flying away from the widebodies?

There are "RJ's" flying higher, faster, and with more modern equipment than many of the mainline aircraft they pass over. It wasn't that long ago that I flew in the cockpit of a Delta 727 and watched in amazement as the FE dialed in the LOM on a coffee grinder ADF.
There are also pilots making more money flying "RJ's" than other pilots flying the real McCoy. The way things are going it is entirely possible that pilots at the feeders will be earning more money and have better retirement and job security than the big boys they feed.

We are all pilots. They are all airplanes. Division is bad. If one level of safety is acceptable then one level of respect should be as well.

The RJ airline one diss's today could be the self same airline one asks for a job when one's own "real" carrier tanks.

CRJammin

You make some really good points......

Excellent post.

av8r4aa

Well My friend "widows Son"

You can have ALL the RJ's you want.
Just remember this:
Every RJ that you and everyone of your pals gets to salivate over
is one less Mainline job (probably many more) will ever get to see.
If you want to retire (see buried) in your spam can go ahead.
I am here for the MONEY you can have all the pride in the world
It doesn't do squat when the bills come.
If you are happy flying 20+ days a month 100 hours a month
MORE POWER TO YA!

My self I enjoy what I do .
I think that you may grow up someday and
quite getting such a woody filling out that logbook with
TURBINE MULTI ENGINE TIME.

MY FRIEND NOBODY GIVES A ****
ITS A JOB SO GET PAID WHAT YOU ARE WORTH.

Its the RJ's AND THEIR PILOTS that are prostituting the Airline "overcapacity" anyway.
If you guys would get paid for the hard work that you do I would feel better.
It is the attitude of" Hell I will work cheaper than the next guy" that is rapidly killing ALL OF US.

Your job and mine are HIGH STRESS and HIGHLY SKILLED jobs

GET THE MONEY THAT YOU DESERVE AND QUIT SELLING YOUR SKILLS FOR
THE ' LOWEST BIDDER'

AA767AV8TOR

RJ’s are the scourge of the current industry crisis. They have a high cost per seat mile, the passengers hate them on long trips and they are a major contributor to the delays problems plaguing the industry.

Yes, there is a place for them in any business plan and I’m sure the pilots are all great sticks, but management went way overboard on buying them simply to transfer more flying to the lower cost work force.

Worse yet, the pilots flying these “highly technical” jets have proven to management that most pilots will do this job for next to nothing. The really sad thing is that for the next crop of pilots, RJ Captain is probably the pinnacle of their career. I just wonder how long the economics hold out in spending $100K on an aviation school or logging 10 years in the military simply to have a $60K job.

If you guys haven’t figured it out yet, we are our own worst enemies. At this rate, even a long distance truck driver will be making more money than us in a few years.

AA767AV8TOR

Widow's Son

BrethrAAn,

First of all, I don't fly RJ's, and never have. Secondly, my airline's payscale is higher than yours so don't lecture me on selling myself short.
I know RJ Captains making in excess of 100k and I know AA FO's making less than 100k and they both have the same years of service. I know one particular comrade of yours who told me recently if his old regional carrier would give him his original seniority back he would bolt in a heartbeat.
Like the majors, there are good regional carriers and bad ones. RJ pay is rising and legacy pay is falling as Darwinism does its thing. Don't get stuck looking down on them because you just may find yourself looking up at them.

AA767AV8TOR

Widow's Son,

Exactly my point. RJ drivers are pulling us all down to their payscales and not the other way around. I have to say that legacy pay is falling at a much faster rate than RJ pay is climbing.

With ticket prices in the gutter, RJ's will continue to be a very inefficient part of the overall business model. They have a very high cost per seat mile and there are simply too many of them flying around and taking up valuable landing slots. Look at all the delays trying to get into ORD.

Widow's Son

If RJ's are such lousy business tools, why are airlines like SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, and even Mesa, doing so well, at least relative to the legacy carriers. In many ways SkyWest's financial standing is even better than Southwest's. The market cap of SkyWest is higher than the two majors it feeds combined. Air Wisconsin is putting money into the AWA/USA deal.
There is a market for RJ operations, SWA/Jetblue type operations, and full service global carriers. The market forces just need to balance. The sad reality is that there are too many legacy seats competing for their slice of the market.
In my opinion, failing carriers need to be allowed to die in dignity rather than Schiavo'd for a decade first. Once enough seats drop out, the healthier ones, like AA for example, will rebound.

av8r4aa

The reason that Skywest,Air Wisconson and Mesa are doing "so well "
is that half their employees are on food stamps. Look at this websites payscale
chart. Even someone as slow as me could show a good profit when I don't pay
the help. When the boss charges 320 dollars a seat to fly from DFW to Tyler
Texas and he pays me 11.00 dollars to do it NO WONDER there is a big profit to be posted.

SAABDriver

Why are the RJ companies doing well? It is because the Majors are paying them to...either by Cost Plus Contracts or by giving the RJ companies the revenue on the fairs. It is just not right.

I fly the traditional commuters. Airways pays us for the people on the plane if we have 20 we do well if we have 2 on board we eat it doing it to keep the slot and get paid when we have a full boat. An RJ on the same route gets paid "cost Plus" Airways pays for the cost of the plane plus added revenue. that is what hurts the majors as well. When an RJ goes out with 10 people the major pays the bill. That is why places like MESA and others do well. But it hurst the pocket of whoever they are carrying for.

Like I said before we need to have commuters and Majors. Not a huge regional world and a small amount of feeding to large aircraft. this would put less planes in the sky and maybe higher pay for everyone.

Like one of you said. 100K for education to dream of making 60K not the world I like.

p

AA767AV8TOR

You must closely examine their balance sheet. Though I can’t speak for all, many of these “feeder carriers” are living off the parent company. You cut the umbilical cord and you kill the company. Independence Air comes to mind.

Like I said, there is a market for some. Management simply went overboard buying way too many of these aircraft in their quest trying to transfer more of the flying over to the lower wage workers. It’s hard to get around the fact that RJ’s carry a very high seat cost per mile.

Fact of life for most at the regionals – low wages, high work load, negligible pensions, and minimal work rules. For most, this will be the end of the line. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

The only way to get around this is to have some sort of national union, but I don't see that happening any time soon.