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Old 01-29-2010, 08:56 AM   #11  
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Do AF and KLM have 5th freedom rights to fly Cargo flights? I seem to recall we have plenty of NWA Cargo slots that are now unused. I would bet FDX and UPS might balk at AF and KLM starting NRT to LAX/ANC/SFO/JFK/ORD flights, and could throw a wrench in that process. NCA and JAL Cargo are the only 2 Japanese airlines allowed to do that, and then FDX, UPS, and NWA Cargo had the other slots.
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:15 AM   #12  
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FDX does, thanks to its purchase of Flying Tigers.
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:25 AM   #13  
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For those unfamiliar with the history of cargo flying and combi aircraft, AF/KL liked to fly Combi pax/freighter AC on many routes.

The problem that NW had was in the USA, the FAA would not certify a combi unless the Freight section was forward and the pax section was aft. Something that market research showed was not favorably received by passengers?

KLM got European certification with pax forward and freight aft on some of their 747s (-300s if my memory is correct).

Not sure if RA would be interested in another pure cargo operation, but I guess he would at least entertain some sort of combi operation that had better revenue numbers on thin routes.
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:31 AM   #14  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg View Post
Do AF and KLM have 5th freedom rights to fly Cargo flights? I seem to recall we have plenty of NWA Cargo slots that are now unused. I would bet FDX and UPS might balk at AF and KLM starting NRT to LAX/ANC/SFO/JFK/ORD flights, and could throw a wrench in that process. NCA and JAL Cargo are the only 2 Japanese airlines allowed to do that, and then FDX, UPS, and NWA Cargo had the other slots.
They can balk, but Open Skies will nullify the Firth Freedom rights. That is the main reason that a JV with JAL is oh so important.
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:52 AM   #15  
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FDX does, thanks to its purchase of Flying Tigers.
I think I stated that. Other than NCA and JAL Cargo, only NWA Cargo and FDX can do it. I am not sure about UPS, but I bet they can too.
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:55 AM   #16  
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They can balk, but Open Skies will nullify the Firth Freedom rights. That is the main reason that a JV with JAL is oh so important.
You can have open skies, but what about landing slots? Not everyone can get in. And that Open Skies has really opened up Haneda, not. It is all about the slots.
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Old 01-29-2010, 10:00 AM   #17  
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You can have open skies, but what about landing slots? Not everyone can get in. And that Open Skies has really opened up Haneda, not. It is all about the slots.
Agreed, but boxes do not care about the truck ride from NRT to down town, ppl do. Point is that Open-Skies will open the Fifth Freedom rights completely for Cargo. The protectionist elements of the Open Skies pack in regards to Haneda will have little effect on curbing many carriers to operate their Cargo OPS they see fit, ala AF/KLM.
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Old 01-29-2010, 10:37 AM   #18  
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Default To answer the original question

It will never happen.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:11 PM   #19  
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It is not that simple, if you think that there aren't negotiations so that other Japanese companies take advantage of the available business you guys are dreaming. The slots at NRT are just as tight to get as the slots at HND, KIX. I wouldn't be bidding for trips just yet
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:14 PM   #20  
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It will never happen.
I agree,,,,,,!
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