Airlines To Cancel Flights
03-15-2010, 11:48 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by syd111
So the US government is going to take care of everything for you? Best of luck with that happening.
As fas as Most Americans not knowing the meaning of a duget or living within their means I think you better go back and look at that government that is going to fix everything for you, let me know when those officials learn the meaning of a budget and how to work within their means.
As fas as Most Americans not knowing the meaning of a duget or living within their means I think you better go back and look at that government that is going to fix everything for you, let me know when those officials learn the meaning of a budget and how to work within their means.
Not sure where you get that out of post.
I can't speak for the rest of America.
as far as me living within my means - well I can control that.
Has a gov't EVER known the meaning of a budget?
In any case - my post was about blaming the consumer for the woes of the airline industry. What is that term everyone likes to use? Straw man?
USMCFLYR
03-15-2010, 12:14 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: CRJ
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Has a gov't EVER known the meaning of a budget?
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
In any case - my post was about blaming the consumer for the woes of the airline industry.
http://www.richmondfed.org/publicati...f/er780201.pdf
Any airline which cannot provide a competitive product soon becomes another chapter in "Great Airlines of the Past".
03-15-2010, 12:21 PM
#53
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I beleive that the Flight where ppl were left on the plane overnight was the final stray. Ya know the regional flight that could not get in to MSP......
There are instances where 3 hour “tarmac” delays are standard operating procedure. These instances are the result of regional airline fee for departure agreements which failed to contemplate the handling of expense relating to passenger handling during irregular operations. You’ll notice that most often, the “we were forced to spend the night on the airplane” horror stories were aboard regional jets operating outsourced flying. The error chain works like this:
ØThe regional partner bids the flying at, or below, actual cost of operation.
ØThe contract provides bonus money to the regional partner for attaining specified performance levels.
ØThe regional partner becomes absolutely dependent on completion factor bonus money for profitability and in some cases, survival
ØManagement sends out the command to Dispatch and Chief Pilots’ offices that no flight is to be cancelled. Everything is to be operated, regardless of weather. It is “legal” to fly to the destination and continue to the alternate. If the flight gets in, great! If it has to divert, try to keep the passengers on the jet until the weather improves sufficiently to get in. When you can re-dispatch to the intended destination all is good and the contractor’s completion factor remains 100%.
The problems start when the weather, mechanical malfunction, ATC or other factors such as crew crest make the already bad situation fall apart. As a Captain at a Regional Airline I’ve been literally screamed at by Chief Pilots for allowing passengers to leave the jet rather than keep them aboard overnight. (also, the TSA will not stick around past their quitting time to re-screen passengers at 03:00 at some regional airport).
The problem for the airline is that these additional costs are not reimbursed. Put a full RJ up in a Hotel overnight and the cost is close to $10,000. One creative Captain talked a bystander into using a cousin’s Church Bus to shuttle their passengers to their final destination on a weather diversion.
SkyWest and Mesa have both sued Delta over the issue, although I don’t know how those cases were resolved.
So no, when we hear about three hour taxi times, we all think KJFK, or KLGA, but the real impetus for this rule were the countless overnight stays on board regional aircraft that you’ve never heard about.
ØThe regional partner bids the flying at, or below, actual cost of operation.
ØThe contract provides bonus money to the regional partner for attaining specified performance levels.
ØThe regional partner becomes absolutely dependent on completion factor bonus money for profitability and in some cases, survival
ØManagement sends out the command to Dispatch and Chief Pilots’ offices that no flight is to be cancelled. Everything is to be operated, regardless of weather. It is “legal” to fly to the destination and continue to the alternate. If the flight gets in, great! If it has to divert, try to keep the passengers on the jet until the weather improves sufficiently to get in. When you can re-dispatch to the intended destination all is good and the contractor’s completion factor remains 100%.
The problems start when the weather, mechanical malfunction, ATC or other factors such as crew crest make the already bad situation fall apart. As a Captain at a Regional Airline I’ve been literally screamed at by Chief Pilots for allowing passengers to leave the jet rather than keep them aboard overnight. (also, the TSA will not stick around past their quitting time to re-screen passengers at 03:00 at some regional airport).
The problem for the airline is that these additional costs are not reimbursed. Put a full RJ up in a Hotel overnight and the cost is close to $10,000. One creative Captain talked a bystander into using a cousin’s Church Bus to shuttle their passengers to their final destination on a weather diversion.
SkyWest and Mesa have both sued Delta over the issue, although I don’t know how those cases were resolved.
So no, when we hear about three hour taxi times, we all think KJFK, or KLGA, but the real impetus for this rule were the countless overnight stays on board regional aircraft that you’ve never heard about.
03-15-2010, 12:25 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by Romulus
Didn't the Clinton administration have a balanced budget? They ended up with a surplus we had a regime change.
It's a combination of competitive marketing and standard supply and demand economic modeling.
http://www.richmondfed.org/publicati...f/er780201.pdf
Any airline which cannot provide a competitive product soon becomes another chapter in "Great Airlines of the Past".
It's a combination of competitive marketing and standard supply and demand economic modeling.
http://www.richmondfed.org/publicati...f/er780201.pdf
Any airline which cannot provide a competitive product soon becomes another chapter in "Great Airlines of the Past".
USMCFLYR
03-15-2010, 01:10 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 638
Originally Posted by syd111
So the US government is going to take care of everything for you? Best of luck with that happening.
As fas as Most Americans not knowing the meaning of a duget or living within their means I think you better go back and look at that government that is going to fix everything for you, let me know when those officials learn the meaning of a budget and how to work within their means.
As fas as Most Americans not knowing the meaning of a duget or living within their means I think you better go back and look at that government that is going to fix everything for you, let me know when those officials learn the meaning of a budget and how to work within their means.
We simply cannot live in a modern society and not have a means of governance. Things like air travel are simply to complex to let a true free market sort it out.
The problem is not that our federal government has too much or too little power, its that the power we gave them isn't being used effectively. The FAA has all the tools at their disposal to make sure that our industry runs smoothly but for all kinds of reasons they don't. Can it ever be truly fixed though? Some may say this is as good as we can expect it to be. Hopefully not.
03-15-2010, 01:35 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
Posts: 1,415
Originally Posted by iPilot
The US Government must take care of that sort of thing. Do you think Grandma and Grandpa will be able to find out for themselves if United or Continental is inspecting their aircraft properly? Will they have the opportunity to quiz the pilots before departure to make sure they know their stuff?
We simply cannot live in a modern society and not have a means of governance. Things like air travel are simply to complex to let a true free market sort it out.
The problem is not that our federal government has too much or too little power, its that the power we gave them isn't being used effectively. The FAA has all the tools at their disposal to make sure that our industry runs smoothly but for all kinds of reasons they don't. Can it ever be truly fixed though? Some may say this is as good as we can expect it to be. Hopefully not.
We simply cannot live in a modern society and not have a means of governance. Things like air travel are simply to complex to let a true free market sort it out.
The problem is not that our federal government has too much or too little power, its that the power we gave them isn't being used effectively. The FAA has all the tools at their disposal to make sure that our industry runs smoothly but for all kinds of reasons they don't. Can it ever be truly fixed though? Some may say this is as good as we can expect it to be. Hopefully not.
I hope your not expecting the Us government to quiz every pilot before every departure, sorry I know over the edge.
03-15-2010, 01:44 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by iPilot
The US Government must take care of that sort of thing. Do you think Grandma and Grandpa will be able to find out for themselves if United or Continental is inspecting their aircraft properly? Will they have the opportunity to quiz the pilots before departure to make sure they know their stuff?
We simply cannot live in a modern society and not have a means of governance. Things like air travel are simply to complex to let a true free market sort it out.
The problem is not that our federal government has too much or too little power, its that the power we gave them isn't being used effectively. The FAA has all the tools at their disposal to make sure that our industry runs smoothly but for all kinds of reasons they don't. Can it ever be truly fixed though? Some may say this is as good as we can expect it to be. Hopefully not.
We simply cannot live in a modern society and not have a means of governance. Things like air travel are simply to complex to let a true free market sort it out.
The problem is not that our federal government has too much or too little power, its that the power we gave them isn't being used effectively. The FAA has all the tools at their disposal to make sure that our industry runs smoothly but for all kinds of reasons they don't. Can it ever be truly fixed though? Some may say this is as good as we can expect it to be. Hopefully not.
USMCFLYR
Last edited by USMCFLYR; 03-15-2010 at 02:00 PM.
03-15-2010, 01:50 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: B-777 left
Posts: 1,415
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I still believe that the aviation industry is one of, if not the, safest form of travel in the world and that air travel in the US is incredibly safe and effective considering the challenges that it faces in capacity and environment. So overall I'd say the gov't is doing a pretty good job of it. I'm sure that it can be done even better and I'm also sure that there are lots of really smart people looking at ways to do just that. Heck - look at all the brains on this forum alone that have every answer in the book, to every problem facing the indsutry!
USMCFLYR
USMCFLYR
Sorry couldn't resist
By the way I do agree with the safety part just think it could be done more effeciently.
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