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Old 10-12-2010, 04:41 PM
  #1041  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
DAL88,
It is ok to be frustrated. What I see as the problem that you should attack is that the majority of your fellow pilots are voting in favor of all of these agreements. Not by a few points but by at least 10 points on each vote. That is ugly proof that the majority of our pilots are happy with what this MEC and previous MEC's have brought forth from the negotiation table.

I do agree that a LEC Rep's vote should be all that needs to be said "for" or "against" a LOA or TA. I do not want to be sold on how to vote, and I agree that needs to stop. They should state why they voted yes, or no, but after that it should come down to what it means to the pilots. Let the agreement pass or fail on its merits.
I don't think DAL88's words showed frustration and I think you demean his words by saying so. His words were focused on sound business principles on how you achieve goals.

Carl
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:48 PM
  #1042  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I disagree with you PG. I think what APA is doing is extremely important for all of us. They are fighting the battle against NMB who are massively abusing their authority by refusing to declare an impasse. A judge will ulitmately have to step in and do what the NMB refuses to do, and that will define a new process that NMB will no longer be able to flout.

If APA just caved in order to get something, then NMB will not be held to account and the process may not be properly defined. It's not a guarantee that we'll get this defined afterwards, but APA's fight is a fight for all of us. IMO.

Carl

I too would love to see this as the way it goes down. We do have good seats to watch.
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:58 PM
  #1043  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I don't think DAL88's words showed frustration and I think you demean his words by saying so. His words were focused on sound business principles on how you achieve goals.

Carl
No Carl he is frustrated that we are not using this "business" tactic now.

I was not demeaning him. We actually get a long quite well. I do not even know if what he states is too far out in left field. I want to wait and see what the rest of the field does over the next nine months before I commit to a plan.

My personal guess is that if AMR and or UCAL get close to an agreement we may see an offer floated early from the company so that we bite before their TA's come out. The end result would be a level playing field in pilots costs by three if not four of the majors (LUV included) That is why it is good to be talking to those guys regularly.
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:28 PM
  #1044  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
No Carl he is frustrated that we are not using this "business" tactic now.

I was not demeaning him. We actually get a long quite well. I do not even know if what he states is too far out in left field. I want to wait and see what the rest of the field does over the next nine months before I commit to a plan.

My personal guess is that if AMR and or UCAL get close to an agreement we may see an offer floated early from the company so that we bite before their TA's come out. The end result would be a level playing field in pilots costs by three if not four of the majors (LUV included) That is why it is good to be talking to those guys regularly.
I understand your fear. It's OK to panic.

Carl
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:36 PM
  #1045  
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Oh Carl!

It would be one point in time where I think a collective pause may be in order. If it came out of left field it would make me question the motivation behind it. Might be a time to hold em.
Just a little forward thinking on my part.
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:41 PM
  #1046  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
No Carl he is frustrated that we are not using this "business" tactic now.
It's not a "business tactic" that you only use in certain situations. Having an appropriate and compelling mission statement around which you focus your people, and setting goals and objectives is something every successful business or organization does. This is something around which you build your strategy and then select the individual tactics you will use in various situations. You can read any number of business textbooks or talk to virtually anyone who has achieved success with a business or organization to confirm this.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I was not demeaning him. We actually get a long quite well. I do not even know if what he states is too far out in left field. I want to wait and see what the rest of the field does over the next nine months before I commit to a plan.
There's nothing "left field" about what I am advocating. It is a very mainstream, tried and true business principle for success. As for "wait and see"... I think pattern bargaining is overrated. It seems to be the DALPA "strategy du jour" right now... but don't forget that it has significant downside risk and got us a 42% pay cut not too long ago. I'd rather set our objective, communicate it clearly to all concerned, and develop our strategy around that... just like virtually every other successful business or organization does.
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:46 PM
  #1047  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
You have stated repeatedly that they need to say this every time they go in to talk to the company about anything even if they KNOW they cannot achieve it. That is why I am saying it. I am too lazy to look over 50K posts to find the 30-40 times you have said it.
No I haven't. That is a mischaracterization of what I have said. Read my previous reply to you for a better understanding of what I am saying. If you still need clarification, just let me know.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:42 PM
  #1048  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
It seems to be the DALPA "strategy du jour" right now... but don't forget that it has significant downside risk and got us a 42% pay cut not too long ago.

I think that is a very myopic viewpoint.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:10 AM
  #1049  
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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Right now, our contract is being used as a reference in both of those negotiations.
True, although to put it in proper perspective, CAL was offered "DAL +1%" and they swiftly rejected it. Was that because they want fatter raises than that? Probably. But a HUGE part of it was that their management's offer included DL scope, which was huge relief to CAL's industry leading scope. That is encouraging.

In any case, I don't expect LM or anyone in DALPA to come out publicly with a percentage raise or some arbitrary date adjusted for inflation, etc right now. I don't think that is smart at all. But what I do expect is certain language about the general direction of expected pay restoration and other non-negotiables. Something like this:

When our airline needed us the most, the Delta and Northwest pilots stepped up and made enormous sacrifices to save our company. We agreed to staggering pay and benefit cuts, the elimination of our pensions and draconian outsourcing of our jobs, even as we were rapidly losing them. We were told that this had to be done to save the company. Although we gave deeply, and in most cases we gave back far too much for far too long, we did save our airline. In addition to that, even while working for years under a temporary emergency contract negotiated under duress on the bankruptcy courthouse steps, we helped facilitate what many agree is one of the most successful airline mergers in history and in record time. We are now making record profits and reaping operational synergies that are the envy of the industry. As before, we remain partners in our airline's success as no one has a more vested interest in the long term success of Delta Air Lines than its over 12,000 professional pilots. As the ammendable date for our temporary and emergency bankruptcy contract, signed under extreme hardship to save the airline and then extended yet again to facilitate the merger, comes to a close in the coming years, Delta's pilots seek only to recapture significant portions of what was lost. While pay will definately go up and outsourcing will absolutely be reduced commensurate with the level of sacrifice and investment made in our airline in its hour of need and continually through the decade since, our company, its shareholders and its customers should know that the pilots of Delta Air Lines remain committed to significant yet sustainable contractual restorations that will ensure the long term success of our proud and industry leading airline.

Or something like that, whatever. The point is, there are ways to state our goals without having to worry about specific numbers or percentages over 2 years and an almost entire peer set negotiation cycle ahead of ourselves. However, there are some things that need to be said that are not only not being said, they are flat out being actively avoided and that is completely unacceptable. AA has a specific pay proposal, UCAL has a specific scope proposal, and both are industry dominating, yet we seem too timid to even dare suggest even in theory that pay will go up or, God forbid, that outsourcing will go down. If we stand for nothing, we'll fall for anything. Time to nut up. At least a little bit.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:27 AM
  #1050  
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Gloopy;
What are you doing up at this hour? Go to sleep.

I wouldn't change a word of what you said. I would also bet that your wording resonates with a large percentage of pilots. If wording to this effect were actually put out there by "our" union, it would be a gigantic morale booster. Pilot interest and involvement would go through the roof. IMO.

Why they don't make statements like this is very telling about "our" union's agenda IMO. I think they like the rank and file disenfranchised and demoralized, it helps them with their agenda of doing little. Its not a career anymore, its a job. ALPA is the "career" and gravy train today.

In terms of cost to the company, pilots as a group are FREE compared to the pay and benefits of 2003. Keep posting, good stuff!
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