Delta Pilots Association
09-22-2010, 09:27 AM
#401
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by JABDIP
Sorry for the insult, but if my recollection of thigs is right almost on every issue we have voted on the Union Boys sell it to us and tell us that if we don't pass this then we will end up with alot worse situation. THink back and what were you told by reps when it came time to vote on something. Don't get me wrong, there are some really good guys out there that do work for the pilots but overall most of the reps turn into ALPA national servants after the trip to Herndan.
I remember what the reps told us to do with our votes and I remember I voted no anyway.
I remember the few reps who did warn of how bad the contracts were, were eventually voted out or left because they were considered to be
too radical.
I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how a DPA run by the same people "we" seem to like to vote in is any different than ALPA.
I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how CAL/UAL are managing to try to eradicate RJ flying is being done under ALPA while we did not, is National ALPA's fault, and not our own.
Either way, with DPA or ALPA, this should serve as a reminder that we have to have some "fortitude" when we decide who our representatives are. When RM and KW get bashed for being too confrontational, then we turn around and say that ALPA is the problem because they are too weak, to me there is some sort of disconnect.
Like I said, I want to win. But, what if CAL/UAL win with ALPA? What does that say about us? Why didn't we do that? Why aren't we doing that? To me it says the problem was us and I have no problem taking the blame as "us." Because, ALPA national can be as rotten as they want to be, a lot of the problems we have were voted on buy "us."
I'm listening and open to any answer provided. I'm just not hearing a lot, right now.
09-22-2010, 09:32 AM
#403
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by NuGuy
And for God's sake, have someone literate working on your communications. Bad grammar and creative spelling makes any effort look like a carnival of dunces no matter how many people say "speeling duddn't count".
Nu
Nu
09-22-2010, 09:39 AM
#404
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,838
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
And no one you met has ever voted for LOA 46, 51 LOA 19, the JCBA etc. It is easy to present an angered approach to a guy that shows anger an animosity towards the Association. It saves a confrontation and debate from a guy that is not as engaged as you or I.
Voting for your LEC rep is the only course of action within DALPA.
Member submitted resolutions that are unpopular (read: all of them) with the MEC are ignored as 'received'. This severely limits any kind of grassroots effort. I'm not sure where this is permissible...but if it isn't, you'd think someone would have called them on it by now.
Even when they are enacted, resolutions have very little teeth. We passed one at NWA that called for the MEC Chairman (NOT his subordinates) to attempt to secure preferential hiring at CAL and FDX. This sat on his desk for over 8 months...
You need a 3 year campaign to really reform DALPA...and it's VERY difficult to do, because during those 3 years, your reps that have been elected the first year have been inundated with "we can't be angry...we need to keep our seat at the table until we get more support".
Even when you get your "team" together, you have to flush the MEC officers, and then root out the Committee structure, which is where the real stuff goes on. Then don't be surprised when those people find the rules that are in place to be VERY comfortable for them.
Good luck.
Nu
09-22-2010, 09:43 AM
#405
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
And no one you met has ever voted for LOA 46, 51 LOA 19, the JCBA etc. It is easy to present an angered approach to a guy that shows anger an animosity towards the Association. It saves a confrontation and debate from a guy that is not as engaged as you or I.
09-22-2010, 09:57 AM
#406
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Sink r8
2) Everyone has a pet issue they're very defensive about, but not everyone is very defensive on every issue. You'll have a conversation with a guy that will slit the throat of anyone that doesn't get him his retirement back, then a conversation with someone that wants to burn an RJ to the ground, then someone that wants a 50% raise, and one last guy that will strike if the words RAW Score are not stricken from the next contract. You might conclude all four pilots will burn the place to the ground over Scope, retirements, payrates, and the Reserve system, but, really, each guy will vote Yes based on the one or two issues, no matter what happens to the other 2 to four issues. The latest, most popular tack is for real senior guys to talk a lot about scope. If you're not capitalizing the letters on the forum, nowadays, you're just not cool. One 7ER candidate for Captain Rep in New York is campaigning on 1.5 pay for all pilots above 80 hours, and... SCOPE. SCOPE? Really? When is the last time you saw a group fail to trade SCOPE for retirements or payrates?
3) What you hear depends on where you sit. As I get more senior, and fly in bigger categories, the speech gets a lot... softer on many issues. As I slide back within my category, however, and people are flying domestic and redeyes, it gets a little more hardcore. For sure, if you're in the left seat, most F/O's are bound to sound more radical. So maybe I need an upgrade to get back closer to the truth.
I realize what I'm saying is anathema to what almost everyone that's on a web board wants to believe: that the silent majority is really, really militant, and held back by a compliant and weak MEC. I think the truth is that the majority is relatively compliant and worried about the company. I agree that there is universal annoyance with an MEC that seems to work in mysterious ways, but I wonder how dissapointed we might be if that MEC did what many of us clamor for, and released the results of their polling.
3) What you hear depends on where you sit. As I get more senior, and fly in bigger categories, the speech gets a lot... softer on many issues. As I slide back within my category, however, and people are flying domestic and redeyes, it gets a little more hardcore. For sure, if you're in the left seat, most F/O's are bound to sound more radical. So maybe I need an upgrade to get back closer to the truth.
I realize what I'm saying is anathema to what almost everyone that's on a web board wants to believe: that the silent majority is really, really militant, and held back by a compliant and weak MEC. I think the truth is that the majority is relatively compliant and worried about the company. I agree that there is universal annoyance with an MEC that seems to work in mysterious ways, but I wonder how dissapointed we might be if that MEC did what many of us clamor for, and released the results of their polling.
2) This is not what I have been finding. Most of the guys I have flown with have issues with all of the things you mentioned, not just a few "pet" items.
3) Could be some truth to this one. I don't know. I've been on the MD-88 my entire Delta career up until 6 months ago. I have wondered if a lot of the 60%ers are found on the more senior aircraft... cause I sure haven't found many of them on the 88 or the -9.
09-22-2010, 10:17 AM
#407
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: A320 B Side
Posts: 222
I know I keep throwing questions without answers, but what about our next contract? Could we have a new union up and running in time for our next TA? It won't help if we go in divided or still setting up shop.
Again, I'm still going back and forth. I like the idea of our own union, but would we be doing too much too fast? I don't want to waste another opporunity.
Again, I'm still going back and forth. I like the idea of our own union, but would we be doing too much too fast? I don't want to waste another opporunity.
09-22-2010, 10:29 AM
#408
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by jiminmem
I know I keep throwing questions without answers, but what about our next contract? Could we have a new union up and running in time for our next TA? It won't help if we go in divided or still setting up shop.
Again, I'm still going back and forth. I like the idea of our own union, but would we be doing too much too fast? I don't want to waste another opporunity.
Again, I'm still going back and forth. I like the idea of our own union, but would we be doing too much too fast? I don't want to waste another opporunity.
Q: Can a grassroots effort to sway at least 50 percent of the Delta pilots away from ALPA be realistically achievable?
A: Judging by the response we are receiving and considering the minimalistic campaign we have run thus far, we should have no problem hitting the 51% target of authorization cards. As we build toward that mark, volunteerism will increase and more features and facts will emerge. Upon requesting the election from the NMB, we should have a full constitution published and many point papers with research to support it. By the time the election actually occurs, we will be a fully functional organization, ready to take the reigns of leadership at DAL. Our goal is for this election to occur by May 2011. We have a lot to achieve structurally for that to occur. In terms of campaigning in the meantime, you would be impressed with some of the individual contributions already occurring. Captains and First Officers from both sides are creating their own message and pointing to our web site. We are close to launching the Financial Oversight Committee and we will then begin to accept financial contributions. You should see a steady build up of communication along the way. I just hope you will jump in early and help us create this organization properly.
Q: Do you think DPA will have enough of a war chest for 2012?
A: DPA should have one year of dues collected as a minimum by that point, but more importantly, at least one year of preparation time for individual pilots to ready themselves financially. There will certainly be a huge “STRIKE PREPARATION” education surge well in advance. Between the two, there should be ample opportunity to ready ourselves for potential action. We will need to be ready to sacrifice at contract time regardless of who represents us.
09-22-2010, 10:37 AM
#409
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Addressing your points above:
2) This is not what I have been finding. Most of the guys I have flown with have issues with all of the things you mentioned, not just a few "pet" items.
3) Could be some truth to this one. I don't know. I've been on the MD-88 my entire Delta career up until 6 months ago. I have wondered if a lot of the 60%ers are found on the more senior aircraft... cause I sure haven't found many of them on the 88 or the -9.
2) This is not what I have been finding. Most of the guys I have flown with have issues with all of the things you mentioned, not just a few "pet" items.
3) Could be some truth to this one. I don't know. I've been on the MD-88 my entire Delta career up until 6 months ago. I have wondered if a lot of the 60%ers are found on the more senior aircraft... cause I sure haven't found many of them on the 88 or the -9.
So maybe its' not useful to ask a person if they care about some section or other: most everyone answers "yes" to most everything. If you try to ask good questions about what truly matters to them, you really end up with one, two, or three core areas, and a lot of flexibility on the rest. Ask someone, after you get time to know them, what would actually get them to risk their job, and their family's income, and the answer is often way more narrow than you might expect. The company knows this, and the union knows this.
By the way, my apologies if I used the term "pet" issue. I'm not saying they're not important issues. I am saying we all focus on different things, and are quite agreeable to voting for something if the triangulation is right.
Enough people seem to be satisfied simply by payrate increases. If there ever was an area where you might find these elusive 60percenters hanging out, this might be it.
09-22-2010, 11:05 AM
#410
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by newKnow
It's ok. I know how heated these issues can become.
I remember what the reps told us to do with our votes and I remember I voted no anyway.
I remember the few reps who did warn of how bad the contracts were, were eventually voted out or left because they were considered to be
too radical.
I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how a DPA run by the same people "we" seem to like to vote in is any different than ALPA.
I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how CAL/UAL are managing to try to eradicate RJ flying is being done under ALPA while we did not, is National ALPA's fault, and not our own.
Either way, with DPA or ALPA, this should serve as a reminder that we have to have some "fortitude" when we decide who our representatives are. When RM and KW get bashed for being too confrontational, then we turn around and say that ALPA is the problem because they are too weak, to me there is some sort of disconnect.
Like I said, I want to win. But, what if CAL/UAL win with ALPA? What does that say about us? Why didn't we do that? Why aren't we doing that? To me it says the problem was us and I have no problem taking the blame as "us." Because, ALPA national can be as rotten as they want to be, a lot of the problems we have were voted on buy "us."
I'm listening and open to any answer provided. I'm just not hearing a lot, right now.
I remember what the reps told us to do with our votes and I remember I voted no anyway.
I remember the few reps who did warn of how bad the contracts were, were eventually voted out or left because they were considered to be
too radical.
I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how a DPA run by the same people "we" seem to like to vote in is any different than ALPA.
I still will try to figure out (apparently on my own) how CAL/UAL are managing to try to eradicate RJ flying is being done under ALPA while we did not, is National ALPA's fault, and not our own.
Either way, with DPA or ALPA, this should serve as a reminder that we have to have some "fortitude" when we decide who our representatives are. When RM and KW get bashed for being too confrontational, then we turn around and say that ALPA is the problem because they are too weak, to me there is some sort of disconnect.
Like I said, I want to win. But, what if CAL/UAL win with ALPA? What does that say about us? Why didn't we do that? Why aren't we doing that? To me it says the problem was us and I have no problem taking the blame as "us." Because, ALPA national can be as rotten as they want to be, a lot of the problems we have were voted on buy "us."
I'm listening and open to any answer provided. I'm just not hearing a lot, right now.
Last edited by Sink r8; 09-22-2010 at 11:30 AM. Reason: grammar
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