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Old 09-22-2010, 05:05 PM
  #471  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
There is unity for ya!
Unity? No.. you are advocating blind obedience. Sorry.. I've had enough of that to a union that fails fairly regularly... Explanation: I am NOT referring to DALPA.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:08 PM
  #472  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Don't go here unless you are ready to really be angry. I'll give an extremely short recap below:

General manager......$411,100
Chief Counsel..........$411,100
Contract Admin.......$242,800
Web Architect........$129,800
Chief economist......$314,300
Staff attorney........$244,500
Lobbyist................$177,600
Finance director......$240,500
Real estate mgr.......$137,900
Ops manager...........$204,300

Again, this is an extremely short portion of the list for 2009.

Tsquare, does this partially answer your question?

Carl
Look at mr prater's compensation.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:08 PM
  #473  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
I put up the data in response to a poster who asked about the "rumor" he heard that some administrators at ALPA national make more money than an MD88 FO. I posted the data from the Department of Labor to show it wasn't a rumor.
OK, fine...
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:09 PM
  #474  
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Originally Posted by iceman49 View Post
National seniority list
Nope.. sorry. That won't begin to answer the issue here. It's pure folly.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:12 PM
  #475  
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo View Post

But you can keep bashing the salaries of the people that work for you. I am sure that maybe you can get a job in corporate communications the next time contract talks come around. You tell everyone how a 747 Captain makes over $250,000 a year (pay and benefits) and only works 80 hours a month. Gets free meals on board the aircraft and even gets to sleep going over to Japan. What a bunch of overpaid jet jockeys. That should get you started.
You cannot be serious with this line can you? Really? Do YOU think Prater has earned his keep.. a simple yes or no.. and you betcha it's on the record... But I'll wager all of Carl's beer the first time that we meet that you'll dodge the question.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:17 PM
  #476  
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo View Post
Okay, this is hilarious. You tout the "professional negotiators" that DPA is pushing.
alfa-
I understand your point. Although you quoted my post, you won't hear me touting professional negotiators. I kinda defy the "forum radical" conventional wisdom on that issue.

I think too many guys have this image of a long table with people sitting on opposite sides in a staredown. Hours and hours of arguing and face to face haggling while they have pizzas brought in for the grueling all-night bargaining session. Sleeves rolled up, green eye shades, cigar smoke, all that.
I think its a lot more about research, cost analysis, revenue projections and competing spreadsheets exchanged via e-mail over many months.
The value of professional negotiators in that environment is more myth than reality.

When we get to the end-game, it'll be more about the courage of the leadership and the determination and unity of the pilot group. The "negotiators" won't have much to do with it.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:19 PM
  #477  
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Heyas,

Well, there IS always the recall route.

Get the support, and recall a couple of elected reps.

It ain't that hard. They torpedoed the FO rep in ANC with barely the required notice.

A couple of well placed recall shots would do wonder's for the current MEC Administrations attitude, especially if it was their ardent supporters.

Since the LEC reps make the MEC, well, then you get the idea.

"But we LIKE our guy...we CAN'T do that". That's what every single person at DAL says. And thus we're left with the status quo.

Nu
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:39 PM
  #478  
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Originally Posted by Check Essential View Post
alfa-
I understand your point. Although you quoted my post, you won't hear me touting professional negotiators. I kinda defy the "forum radical" conventional wisdom on that issue.

I think too many guys have this image of a long table with people sitting on opposite sides in a staredown. Hours and hours of arguing and face to face haggling while they have pizzas brought in for the grueling all-night bargaining session. Sleeves rolled up, green eye shades, all that.
I think its a lot more about research, cost analysis, revenue projections and competing spreadsheets exchanged via e-mail over many months.
The value of professional negotiators in that environment is more myth than reality.

When we get to the end-game, it'll be more about the courage of the leadership and the determination and unity of the pilot group. The "negotiators" won't have much to do with it.
I agree with all of that, and will add this...

One problem I see with our negotiations is that we tend to reach a compromise, even when we shouldn't. I think the problem is not that we're not represented well, but maybe we're represented a little too faithfully. I think we as a group are actually too willing to compromise, and too interested in getting to a result. The guys sitting at the table are going through numbers, and working their way through the problem, as if dealing with an emergency. Which we are, because if this mofo burns or crashes, so does our career.

A professional negotiator might be helpful to try to get us to see the value of walking away from the process, but he can't change our basic problem WRT seniority, and our effective marriage to our airline.

And so they can't seem to help themselves, and produce... something, which (unfortunately for us) reflects our dark fears of bankruptcy in bad times. As soon as a T/A is produced, we're screwed, a) because the union will feel absolutely obligated to sell this deformed baby they helped bring into the world, and b) because we are actually the biological parents of the monstrosity anyway, and we're about to start paying for it.

And so virtually every T/A passes.

Exceptions seem to occur only in the best of times, when we are driven by greed rather than fear. That's when management temporarily feels married to us, and they are anxious not to derail their gravy train.

So my thinking is not that we need a professional, we need an MEC that is willing to pull the negotiators back, and stop them from doing their work so dilligently. In other words, we need to learn how to say "no" to a T/A. Which is backed up by a pilot group that's willing to gamble their jobs a little.

Judging by our recent votes... we have some way to go.

I'm in the camp that believes that we need our careers not to be tied to any airline. Whether it takes a NSL, or some other device, anything that will allow us to walk from a job, and get an equivalent job somewhere, and bring us into the world of free agency, will stop this compliant attitude. Then, maybe, a professional could help a little.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:40 PM
  #479  
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prate |prāt|
verb [ intrans. ]
talk foolishly or tediously about something.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:44 PM
  #480  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver View Post
Without going back and doing a lot of research, I can't say for sure.
I admire your honestly. I'm working on the graph now. Do you have the M88 rates for 1990-1995? Also, how about anything for before 1987? Anyone?

So far, with what I've got; the graph pretty much proves exactly what i stated. But I'd like to fill in the holes, then maybe someone smarter than me can help me figure out how to post it.
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