Delta Pilots Association
09-20-2010, 01:49 PM
#61
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I just state, be careful about unintended consequences about actions that are not well thought out.
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Emotion can be a very dangerous thing.
Carl
09-20-2010, 01:50 PM
#62
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
Scope
You cant effectively protect mainline jobs while also working to expand the regionals. Conflict of interest and the only way to fix it is to get all flying done by 1 pilot list for the said major. Whipsaw must stop.
You cant effectively protect mainline jobs while also working to expand the regionals. Conflict of interest and the only way to fix it is to get all flying done by 1 pilot list for the said major. Whipsaw must stop.
Carl
09-20-2010, 01:54 PM
#63
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by iceman49
...its all about getting the right reps voted in.
Carl
09-20-2010, 01:54 PM
#64
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by tsquare
I don't think most guys are unhappy with DALPA.. it's the national level that gets tiresome. With the federal gubbamint robbing everybody's future, I think we are all a little sick of funding Prater's retirement and really seeing nothing in return...
That right there is the bottom line.
We are wasting millions supporting a bloated bureaucracy in Herndon.
A bureaucracy that seems to exist only to perpetuate themselves and their lifestyles.
Look at Babbitt and Woerth. Hardly the model of the volunteer line pilot.
They've become very wealthy men off their ALPA National "careers".
That building up there in D.C. no longer serves those of us paying the bills.
I'll do without the glossy magazine.
09-20-2010, 01:59 PM
#65
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by caddis
I am not ready to send in the card yet, but I am ready to listen.
But while you're listening, be careful for people who spout things that don't pass your own personal logic test. Too many say things like: "it's complicated" and "I wish I could tell you all the things I've seen in confidence, then you'd agree with me about..." That's what people do when they don't have the facts on their side and try to push their own personal agenda.
We all know the truth when we hear it, because it passes our own logic test. We all need to listen to it and we'll be OK.
Carl
09-20-2010, 02:02 PM
#66
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Chuck;
You hit one really big salient point. We as a pilot group are shrinking. Each time that scope has been loosened, we as a pilot group have voted for it. Under the DB days we were FAE focused, under the CH 11 era we were trying to avoid this or that, but in the end we always voted YES for the change, not ALPA National but the pilots of DAL/NWA.
The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do. We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic.
The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA, change the by laws to force National to come in line with those paying the bills, and to fight to reverse the trend we ourselves' have created. Outsourcing has and will always be a marriage that last one loop around the track. CH 11 took away any of the gains a plane here and there gave. It is now time to push the issue.
The only way to solve this issue without creating another one is to first ask for outsourced flying to be put back on our list. To my knowledge that has never been done. Why not? Who knows, but first ask the question, then take the response to that question and build from it.
All of these issues we started here at the mainline and must be solved at the mainline. I get the desire to have all money going to DAL pilot's interests but the reality is that many of our interest align with the other pilot groups that are part of the National ALPA. We would be spending the same money we do now. Some say that joining the CAPA would happen. That is all well and good, but do our interest totally align with all of its members? Nope not on your life, so in effect you are getting to join another group of unions that still has to come up with a general consensus while using your money. (No change)
As the argument goes, but there will not be any regional airlines in it. For now that is true, but what happens when ALPA dissolves? Will CAPA bring them in over fear that these guys will successfully create cutouts of their flying that totally fly past the mainlines PWA section one protections? I bet they would. It is self preservation, and the only way to keep them in check is to make them part of your greater group. It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward.
A lot of pilots look at the regional v mainline conflict of interest at National. Well lets look at that. First look how the ALPA National Policy Manual and By-Laws are written. Go look, download them, and read them. Yep, I was looking for this conflict too about two years ago (was very vocal), and I constantly posted about it. I see no conflict. Just to save a few ppl time:
1) National Signs our contract, they do not negotiate it. The response is BS they do they send lawyers. They do, but we also employ our own that work for DALPA every day and sit in our offices. We negotiate what we want and can reign in scope with no fear of National telling us we cannot. They get a cut of the money if we fly it or if a regional represented by ALPA flies it. It is of no consequence to them.
(The only fear some regioanals may have about us doing this is that we as selfish and self centered mainline pilots my not remember to think of them at the table. As many have always said, their responsibility is to the Delta pilots first. With that said, what can they do about us doing what we want? Nada. We have the money and leverage, we just need to choose to use it.)
2) What about Ford Cooksey and those RJDC guys?
Lots of bad blood here, I agree. Their biggest mistake was suing ALPA. In the end the settlement gave them a seat at the table on an advisory committee. They have no binding authority on anything. It is meet and confer, no more no less. In effect a settlement without true teeth.
3) The local Units of ALPA do your bidding as a Delta pilot. The same will hold true with DPA. What that means is that once again, you need reps that carry your desires to the MEC and to the negotiating table. It means that nothing will change in the way we develop and negotiate our next contract. It requires one less signature which is no more than just a rubber stamp. (No National president would ever refuse to sign a mainline contract for no other reason that self preservation)
I totally get the frustration that many feel towards their Association over the last decade and more importantly over the last few years. What is the theme here? We all know the answer. We all agree that something needs to change, but we disagree on how that change needs to occur. I personally think that reform from within is the answer. We can disagree on that. I choose to take this stance for many reasons but the most important one is the "Law of Unintended Consequences."
In this world we are seeing more and more Joint Ventures and Cross Ocean agreements. Here at DALPA/DAL we have seen some very binding agreements with the AF/KLM deal and the agreement among all pilots of the the Sky Team Alliance. We have not seen the fruits of this effort since we have been in a recession but we will. This work is good work. It would have not been possible without ALPA and IFALPA. It by nature brought us and AF to the table to start a dialogue. Going it alone we may see this sort of thing, but it would not be as easy as it has been. It is like trying to get a visa to a country we do not have Diplomatic Relations to. Same principle.
These principles also allow many things to "happen" as we move forward. It is my belief that some day Foreign Ownership limits will be done away with and Cabatoge will be a thing of the past. What do you think that means for a pilot group that has embraced isolationism? My gut and view of history determines it will not be a positive one. That is why I say, keep the seat at the table but fix the issues behind the seat.
In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction. I am sure we will see the fourth by-law change to keep the balance of power in the hands of the mainline carrier at national but how do we "Reform ALPA" to fix what truly burns most pilots? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer.
It is why I say, before you don your fire suit, and pick up your torches, you educate yourself on the positions of the four men running for the office of ALPA National's President. Much of it will sound the same but a lot of it will not. We need a communicator that will take hard positions on scope, restoration, flight and duty time limits, cargo safety initiatives, associationesque limits on those joining our profession, compensation structures for ALPA National leaders and a myriad of other issues. We do not want lip service.
We as a group (All ALPA pilots) need these issues fixed before we succumb to our own devices. Trust me, when I say, ten years down the road looking back leaving ALPA may be the worst thing we could have done for our profession. It is good we are having this debate because it will force a few issues, but at the end of the day, there are more reasons to stay part of ALPA than to leave it.
We will undoubtedly be having this debate between ALPA and DPA over the next few months, but before you blindly vote make sure you are educated on what each choice means.
You hit one really big salient point. We as a pilot group are shrinking. Each time that scope has been loosened, we as a pilot group have voted for it. Under the DB days we were FAE focused, under the CH 11 era we were trying to avoid this or that, but in the end we always voted YES for the change, not ALPA National but the pilots of DAL/NWA.
The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do. We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic.
The only way to solve this is to kick the dead weight out of ALPA, change the by laws to force National to come in line with those paying the bills, and to fight to reverse the trend we ourselves' have created. Outsourcing has and will always be a marriage that last one loop around the track. CH 11 took away any of the gains a plane here and there gave. It is now time to push the issue.
The only way to solve this issue without creating another one is to first ask for outsourced flying to be put back on our list. To my knowledge that has never been done. Why not? Who knows, but first ask the question, then take the response to that question and build from it.
All of these issues we started here at the mainline and must be solved at the mainline. I get the desire to have all money going to DAL pilot's interests but the reality is that many of our interest align with the other pilot groups that are part of the National ALPA. We would be spending the same money we do now. Some say that joining the CAPA would happen. That is all well and good, but do our interest totally align with all of its members? Nope not on your life, so in effect you are getting to join another group of unions that still has to come up with a general consensus while using your money. (No change)
As the argument goes, but there will not be any regional airlines in it. For now that is true, but what happens when ALPA dissolves? Will CAPA bring them in over fear that these guys will successfully create cutouts of their flying that totally fly past the mainlines PWA section one protections? I bet they would. It is self preservation, and the only way to keep them in check is to make them part of your greater group. It will result in having the same sort of organization we do now (National) that has the same limits. In effect we just will change the name plate on the door. Sounds like a lot of work and a ton of risk for not much reward.
A lot of pilots look at the regional v mainline conflict of interest at National. Well lets look at that. First look how the ALPA National Policy Manual and By-Laws are written. Go look, download them, and read them. Yep, I was looking for this conflict too about two years ago (was very vocal), and I constantly posted about it. I see no conflict. Just to save a few ppl time:
1) National Signs our contract, they do not negotiate it. The response is BS they do they send lawyers. They do, but we also employ our own that work for DALPA every day and sit in our offices. We negotiate what we want and can reign in scope with no fear of National telling us we cannot. They get a cut of the money if we fly it or if a regional represented by ALPA flies it. It is of no consequence to them.
(The only fear some regioanals may have about us doing this is that we as selfish and self centered mainline pilots my not remember to think of them at the table. As many have always said, their responsibility is to the Delta pilots first. With that said, what can they do about us doing what we want? Nada. We have the money and leverage, we just need to choose to use it.)
2) What about Ford Cooksey and those RJDC guys?
Lots of bad blood here, I agree. Their biggest mistake was suing ALPA. In the end the settlement gave them a seat at the table on an advisory committee. They have no binding authority on anything. It is meet and confer, no more no less. In effect a settlement without true teeth.
3) The local Units of ALPA do your bidding as a Delta pilot. The same will hold true with DPA. What that means is that once again, you need reps that carry your desires to the MEC and to the negotiating table. It means that nothing will change in the way we develop and negotiate our next contract. It requires one less signature which is no more than just a rubber stamp. (No National president would ever refuse to sign a mainline contract for no other reason that self preservation)
I totally get the frustration that many feel towards their Association over the last decade and more importantly over the last few years. What is the theme here? We all know the answer. We all agree that something needs to change, but we disagree on how that change needs to occur. I personally think that reform from within is the answer. We can disagree on that. I choose to take this stance for many reasons but the most important one is the "Law of Unintended Consequences."
In this world we are seeing more and more Joint Ventures and Cross Ocean agreements. Here at DALPA/DAL we have seen some very binding agreements with the AF/KLM deal and the agreement among all pilots of the the Sky Team Alliance. We have not seen the fruits of this effort since we have been in a recession but we will. This work is good work. It would have not been possible without ALPA and IFALPA. It by nature brought us and AF to the table to start a dialogue. Going it alone we may see this sort of thing, but it would not be as easy as it has been. It is like trying to get a visa to a country we do not have Diplomatic Relations to. Same principle.
These principles also allow many things to "happen" as we move forward. It is my belief that some day Foreign Ownership limits will be done away with and Cabatoge will be a thing of the past. What do you think that means for a pilot group that has embraced isolationism? My gut and view of history determines it will not be a positive one. That is why I say, keep the seat at the table but fix the issues behind the seat.
In regard to the regionals within ALPA National: We are getting to the point where they may have more rollcall votes that we do. Scary? maybe. In realty it is more like Mutually Assured Destruction. I am sure we will see the fourth by-law change to keep the balance of power in the hands of the mainline carrier at national but how do we "Reform ALPA" to fix what truly burns most pilots? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is seldom the correct answer.
It is why I say, before you don your fire suit, and pick up your torches, you educate yourself on the positions of the four men running for the office of ALPA National's President. Much of it will sound the same but a lot of it will not. We need a communicator that will take hard positions on scope, restoration, flight and duty time limits, cargo safety initiatives, associationesque limits on those joining our profession, compensation structures for ALPA National leaders and a myriad of other issues. We do not want lip service.
We as a group (All ALPA pilots) need these issues fixed before we succumb to our own devices. Trust me, when I say, ten years down the road looking back leaving ALPA may be the worst thing we could have done for our profession. It is good we are having this debate because it will force a few issues, but at the end of the day, there are more reasons to stay part of ALPA than to leave it.
We will undoubtedly be having this debate between ALPA and DPA over the next few months, but before you blindly vote make sure you are educated on what each choice means.
Carl
09-20-2010, 02:04 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Regionals within ALPA have been going after and taking flying for over a decade now. Don't know how you could have missed that.
09-20-2010, 02:05 PM
#68
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by tsquare
I disagree. I do not think these issues are fixable. It's just like Congress. the entrenched elite are never going to go away despite all the threats to the contrary. I cannot believe that you can really defend them.
But just to dig a little deeper... what is it exactly that we get from national that couldn't be had by writing a check?
We need an ALPA attorney? they won't EVER turn money down.. I have yet to meet a lawyer that would. Aeromedical? I have used them and they really are a good bunch of people, but those services are not so unique that they cannot be duplicated here.
I have worked with other pilots that are non-alpa and trust me you do not know what you have.
Why are the executives payrates some kind of average of the MAJOR airlines that make up their constituency?
Why not an average of ALL the highest paying airlines under their pervue?
I'll bet his attitude would certainly change as to who is more important. How much of that gigantic MCF have the DAL pilots ever used?
show me some of these things that make the national part of this association worthwhile and I will get on board. How are the DELTA pilots being supported by this bureaucracy?
/rant OFF
/rant OFF
ALPA was founded on a lose association of pilot groups. To date that is true, but the perception is that ALPA National carrier a lot more power in regard to our negotiations than they really do. We are one of the two big behemoths in the room. I highly doubt that if we took back all of our flying with interview rights and or some sort of quid for the pilots effected that we would hear a peep out of any of them. The only reason the regional guys care remotely about their careers at the regional is that we as the mainline have done such a poor job of keep our side of the profession up. Give them a true reason to leave their safe regional job, and most would be more than willing to do so. Starting with better scope, pay, work rules, and benefits is a way to reverse that trend. If you can get part of that, the pendulum goes the other way.
So answer your question, what are the benefit that ALPA has or a new relatively unknown association?
1) Name recognition: The power base knows the name and the number that go with it.
2) AFL-CIO affiliation. Like it or not that is very powerful
3) Numbers. There is always a fear in the fact that ALPA represents over 55K pilots.
4) Legal Support for you the line pilot when you get in trouble. Get in trouble and you will swear by them.
5) Aeromed; Again worth its weight in gold. Have a heart attack and do not have the influence that ALPA has at the FAA and you may be SOL with getting an SI. Trust me this is very important to all of us no just the old farts
6) MCF: Lots of money. It sill there is one needs it. There are commitments to the MCF, but to date there is still plenty in there if we need it.
7) The rest of the ALPA pilots would more than likely support us with a assessment if it ever came to it, with DPA you will have to asses yourself. Never been tested here, but ask the NWA brethren about this.
8) International affiliation with IFALPA: I have gone over this in detail in other posts, but do not discredit its influence on a future merger with AF/KLM. Also do not discredit our influence on ICAO
9) JS committee. You are a commuter. This team of pilots makes sure that abuses are to a minimum and that your privileges are not lost.
10) Security: You have no idea what these guys do on a national level for each and every pilot day in and day out. Lets just say, they have a bigger impact than you can imagine. DPA would have to fight to get the access these guys have.
11) Safety: What you see in the press is not what you are getting. What really occurs, occurs behind the scenes. Ask your safety chair in NYC, the guy who is running for FO rep. He can give you a glimpse of what they get to be a party of.
12) FAA: If you think that the FAA and NTSB does not listen to us, you are kidding yourself. We as ALPA are invited to be a party to almost every accident that occurs. Heck most of our committee members are invited to accidents that do not involve ALPA pilots by other independent associations because frankly they are the best.
In reality I could go on and on about the total structure of ALPA. What you and most have an issue with is the bureaucratic bs that seems to be clogging the wheels. That is fixable with a effort of the masses for massive by-law and policy manual rewrite. Heck get a leader that wants what you want, you he can do your heavy lifting. That take one BOD meeting to fix.
A few major changes like the rank and file voting for the ALPA president will change the dynamic completely. We are a representation parliament now, go to a federalist sort of organization and the dynamic changes very quickly. The issues that may pose is that we are truly bottom up and a President may be too worries about keeping his job that he does not do his. Maybe things like a two term limit may be the better option.
I prefer to have a dialogue on how to fix alpa not how to implode ALPA. There may come a time when the DPA is the correct answer, but in my opinion there are way too many things on the horizon for the delta pilots to take a isolationist sort of view.
09-20-2010, 02:07 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Look at Babbitt and Woerth. Hardly the model of the volunteer line pilot.
They've become very wealthy men off their ALPA National "careers".
They've become very wealthy men off their ALPA National "careers".
09-20-2010, 02:08 PM
#70
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
The ugly truth is that the major airline pilots have caused the issue of the regionals getting to the point where they have more roll call votes than the majors do.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
We screwed up, and now we think we can fix it buy cutting bait and running. Classic.
Carl
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Lbell911
Regional
23
04-22-2012 10:33 AM
