20 Mile Final

Has anybody seen the 22-min video for this new procedure?

They characterize it as the best of both procedures (Delta & Northwest). I disagree. I think it's the WORST of both.

The good part of the Northwest procedure was that you could promptly leave the gate, start your engines, and proceed to the runway while the performance data was being collected. Expeditious? - yes. Possible overload for the F/O? - yes. Good and bad.

The Delta procedure, waiting for the WDR at the gate ... Expeditious? - no. Possible overload for the F/O? - no. Bad and good.

Now we've taken the bad part of both and combined them. It will not be any more expeditious because we still cannot taxi without the WDR (unless forced to move). Either sit at the gate and wait for the WDR -or- pushback and hope you get the WDR before you have to taxi. Now we've created the highly expensive possibility of pushing back, starting engines, and waiting for the WDR. In addition, now we have the incredibly awkward and disruptive prospect of trying to negotiate with ground control to STOP the aircraft in order to perform a checklist. Can you imagine having to do that at some of these busy airports?

"O'Hare Ground, Delta 438."
"Go ahead Delta 438."
"We need to stop here for a moment while we perform a checklist."

Yeah, right!

I think we're going to burn more fuel with this new procedure and it will totally negate whatever advantage they thought they were gaining.

For instance, in scenario #1 in the training video, the crew gets the WDR during the pushback. They start the engine. After the engine is started and as the waveoff is received, instead of taxiing (as we have been doing), they sit there longer, load the performance data, and execute the "Performance Checklist" ... all with the engine running.

I timed it. It takes them nearly 2 minutes from the time the Captain gets the waveoff until they call for taxi. 2 minutes with the engine running.

What difference does it make to delay pushback until the numbers are entered -or- delay taxiing until the numbers are entered? They are both delays. One way or the other, you're going to have to wait. But in the latter situation, you're waiting with the engine(s) running.

Also, in the video - in my opinion, the Captain is far too chatty. I hope this is just a technique item. I've been telling my F/O's to use their good judgment on what to load into the computer off the WDR and to put a checkmark on the line they used, for my quick reference. I compare what they've checked to what they've loaded. If it looks good to me, we go right into the checklist without a bunch of extraneous and repetitive chatter.

johnso29

This was discussed in depth on the latest & greatest thread.

Carl Spackler

At least it's a step in the right direction. After a few of the examples as you cite in O'Hare and JFK etc., hopefully they'll change it to allow you to taxi all the way to the runway.

But you're correct in your analysis that this will probably make things worse initially.

Carl

20 Mile Final

Sorry about bringing up an old topic. I don't visit here too much and to read the entire "latest & greatest" thread, I'd have to go back to shortly before Kennedy was assassinated.

20 Mile Final

No, I think that the temptation to enter the numbers while taxiing will be tremendous. And quite frankly, I'll bet that's what most crews will do instead of stopping on the taxiway.

Not me, of course, because I'm a consummate professional. I'm just thinking of you guys.

dragon

Agree Carl.

I think this is all about ACS and their sacred D-0. Have heard from numerous sources that we really care about A-0 but they're convinced we are the ones holding up the machine.

Can't wait for the series of calls that happen all the time when the numbers don't match the passenger load and we've got "no tolerance" - ground, Delta 123, will it be ok if we park here for a while?

iceman49

It is about ACS, and its not their sacred D-0 (That goes into the DOT measurement that DL would sorely like to improve). When FNWA went to the current proc, ACS was told that the delays would sky rocket, they said no...it's all about when the flight is closed out and not letting last minute runners and bags on. Do we really need 5 different sets of numbers for 2 or 3 different runways? When the majority uses the same grouping most of the time, third one down.

dragon

I wouldn't say all use the same third one down. Its about picking a set of numbers that work for the situation.

DOT does track on time performance. But at the end of the day, the customer wants to arrive when they were told they were going to arrive. The other metric is nice, but how many folks buy their tickets based on departure time performance. Even the HVCs want an on-time arrival in order to make a connection or a meeting.

iceman49

An on time out, gives you a better chance of having on time arrival, connection depends on an accurate arrival time and how long it takes to get to the gate...A to E, good luck. They do base the ticket purchase on a variety of things...price, on time stats and convenience.

PittsS2B

Much like an unexpected runway change right now...