Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
(Post 1057268)
We're not trying to "punish" the regional pilots. It's not the same situation as SWA and AirTran pilots at all. We just want to bring our flying back to mainline where it belongs. The RJ pilots have had the benefit of a tremendous qualification building opportunity and I'll bet most of them would be happy to come to Delta as new hires.
This is a very unpredictable industry. Things change. Outsourcing is one of those fads that hasn't worked out. Like most other bad ideas, it (hopefully) will end soon. The good news is that getting rid of outsourcing (improving our scope) will provide a great opportunity for many qualified regional pilots to achieve their ultimate objective of working for a major airline. FWIW, I'm not in favor of merging with any of the Delta Connection carriers or stapling their pilots. They should apply and go through the interview process just like everyone else. You're trying to make a comparison that is not relevant. |
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
(Post 1057272)
I don't see outsourcing ending. Delta is still signing feeder contracts as fast as possible to make sure our scope is maxed out before contract negotiations.
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
(Post 1057268)
We're not trying to "punish" the regional pilots. It's not the same situation as SWA and AirTran pilots at all. We just want to bring our flying back to mainline where it belongs. The RJ pilots have had the benefit of a tremendous qualification building opportunity and I'll bet most of them would be happy to come to Delta as new hires.
This is a very unpredictable industry. Things change. Outsourcing is one of those fads that hasn't worked out. Like most other bad ideas, it (hopefully) will end soon. The good news is that getting rid of outsourcing (improving our scope) will provide a great opportunity for many qualified regional pilots to achieve their ultimate objective of working for a major airline. FWIW, I'm not in favor of merging with any of the Delta Connection carriers or stapling their pilots. They should apply and go through the interview process just like everyone else. You're trying to make a comparison that is not relevant. I respectfully disagree with the statement. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1057032)
nope!
My statement come from the opinion that a National and International network is key. We have that though the merger, but DAL has commitments like the DCI CPA's, Airport leases and obligations, etc that cause the over all network to be inefficient. Frequency and market share were the buzz words last decade, and they have given way to RASM, and total revenue generation. The problem in this shift is special interests, and existing contracts. DAL will get to the point of a 10-20 percent reduction in the amount of departures they do, though larger gauge jets. It is painfully slow with the type of agreement that have been signed in years past. DCI is morphing but slower than it should. Our route network is doing the same, but again slower than it should due to contracts and existing obligations. I highly suspect that the DAL of 2020 will be totally different than the one we see today. From a pilots perspective that can be good or bad. As Bar states, Unity(not the over used word, but the real grassroots unity where one job is not worth more the the next) is key. We fly jet, and need to be willing to put job security and protection to the top of the list. If it cannot be bought or sold, the job security and benefit from this belief will allow us to see the ensuing decades be far kinder than the last to this career. * I said DAL departure, not Delta pilot departures. That point is significant. |
Originally Posted by Ed Harley
(Post 1057241)
...and you're forgetting that the regional carriers that we'd like to staple to our list fly much smaller aircraft.
Air Tran is not only flying similar sized aircraft to SWA, they're flying international routes, which SWA doesn't. Your argument isn't comparing apples to apples. Boeing Introduces 717-200 Airplane as New Regional Jet http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...hotorelsml.jpg Click image to view Photo Release. These images are available for editorial use by news media on: boeingmedia.com SEATTLE, Jan. 08, 1998 -- The Boeing Company today introduced and renamed the newest member of its commercial airplane family -- the Boeing 717-200 twinjet. "The 717-200 is uniquely qualified to meet the evolving requirements of the new regional jetliner market," said Ron Woodard, president, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group. "It's a 100-seat airplane market that demands comfort, low operating costs and high schedule reliability. This is the plane to meet that need." DC9-50 Accommodation: 125 passengers Cruising Speed: 505 mph (813 km/h) Range: 785 miles (1,263 km) Engine: 2 jet engines, fuselage-mounted Cargo Capacity: 1.85 tons (1,678 kg) CRJ900 90 (1-class, maximum) |
Well first off, our current scope doesn't allow 90 seat flying to be outsourced. We have a limited number of 76 seat aircraft and lots of 50 seat aircraft flown by regionals.
Second, I remember Boeing was desperately trying to convinced airlines in the late 90's that the 717 was a regional jet since they didn't (and still don't) produce one. No one fell for it. Third, most all unions (including southwest) buy off on the "larger the jet, larger the pay" philosophy. SWAPA in fact negotiated more benefits/pay with SWA to fly the 737-800. So you're still not convincing me that a 76 seat regional pilot is equally merged with a 125 seat or larger delta pilot. |
Originally Posted by shoelu
(Post 1057290)
It seems that 90 seat aircraft and 125 seat aircraft are in fact similar. Yes they are in fact flying "Regional" aircraft which is exactly what Boeing terms 60% of the AT fleet. It may not be exactly apples to apples, but it probably a lot closer than your willing to admit. It is really more deeply rooted in the principle of the whole thing.
Boeing Introduces 717-200 Airplane as New Regional Jet http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...hotorelsml.jpg Click image to view Photo Release. These images are available for editorial use by news media on: boeingmedia.com SEATTLE, Jan. 08, 1998 -- The Boeing Company today introduced and renamed the newest member of its commercial airplane family -- the Boeing 717-200 twinjet. "The 717-200 is uniquely qualified to meet the evolving requirements of the new regional jetliner market," said Ron Woodard, president, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group. "It's a 100-seat airplane market that demands comfort, low operating costs and high schedule reliability. This is the plane to meet that need." DC9-50 Accommodation: 125 passengers Cruising Speed: 505 mph (813 km/h) Range: 785 miles (1,263 km) Engine: 2 jet engines, fuselage-mounted Cargo Capacity: 1.85 tons (1,678 kg) CRJ900 90 (1-class, maximum) Point taken, then you should have no concern whatsoever when your case goes to arbitration. Good luck. |
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
(Post 1057272)
I don't see outsourcing ending. Delta is still signing feeder contracts as fast as possible to make sure our scope is maxed out before contract negotiations.
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Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1057346)
Point taken, then you should have no concern whatsoever when your case goes to arbitration. Good luck.
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Originally Posted by shoelu
(Post 1057204)
You guys are absolutely comical. You attempt to paint SWA as "Satan with Epaulettes", yet you plot and scheme to do the exact same thing you berate us for. If I understand your argument (and I think I do), you want to take current aircraft flying Delta code but at a completely separate airline and bring those aircraft and that flying to the Delta certificate but staple those pilots to the bottom of the Delta seniority list. You want to work out a deal that is unfavorable to their seniority, but provides them with long term potential gain in stability, pay and work rules. You would need to work out some type of arrangement through the mutual agreement of both groups prior to this happening because you would fear the potential outcome of an arbitrated seniority list in this case. Does that sum it up pretty well? The hypocrisy of this board is absolutely STUNNING. I guess the Delta Connection carriers don't measure up to the Delta threshold of pilots that deserve fair treatment that you so willingly hand to the AirTran folks, because they after all only fly RJ's. Next time you choose to throw stones, please do so into the mirror.
Now why do we say a staple is wrong for SWA-AAI? Because we think they're apples to apples airlines. Your career expectations in terms of aircraft size is identical and I think AAI was on the verge of a 738 order right? Still identical to SWA. But why are DAL-DCI not apples-to-apples operations? Who can scope who? And what are the career expectations of a DCI pilot? But for the record Shoe, I want to end DCI, not merge with it. Then I want to hire. I see nothing good coming from a merger. How much of ASA do you take when some of the flying is UAL Exp? How much of Skywest do you take or do you just favor Comair and ASA? But what about Pinnacle, Mesaba and Compass? Do you put those other regionals over Compass who have a complete flow through and were hired by NWA? How about RAH? Who do we take? Shuttle, CHQ, Frontier pilots, mixture of both? Too much of a headache. Just be glad SWA never had a single turboprop flying off property for them. Seating size masked the CRJ-100's entry into the system. AMR had the right idea, we fly all jets. But they didn't win that war and that was a loss. It's a road your airline, and FedEx for that matter, never went down in the first place. You're lucky and just be thankful you don't have this battle to fight. |
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