Delta IROs (relief pilots)...
12-06-2011, 12:39 PM
#1
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
Delta IROs (relief pilots)...
OK, just trying to understand your system, as it came up in discussion on one of our int'l flights some time ago.
I was told that you guys decide who is FO and who is IRO when you meet up in Operations. True?
On the outbound leg (say, JFK-Europe) with the CA flying pilot - the FO is in the right seat for takeoff, and in the left seat during CA's break. The IRO is in the j/s for takeoff but actually sits in the right seat for landing, taking over the FO's duties where the FO takes the j/s.
Just curious, why all the seat shuffling?
Here at AA (and as I understand it, at most airlines) - an IRO is ALWAYS in the j/s for both takeoff and landing. The FO is ALWAYS in the right seat for takeoff and landing. We never shuffle seats around for takeoff and landing.
We also have straight IRO lines - if you bid an IRO line, you are IRO for the whole month, and may never get a landing (many folks do that on purpose so they can expire and go down to sims every 3 months, which = more $$$.)
Hope I didn't confuse everyone, thanks for any clarification.
I was told that you guys decide who is FO and who is IRO when you meet up in Operations. True?
On the outbound leg (say, JFK-Europe) with the CA flying pilot - the FO is in the right seat for takeoff, and in the left seat during CA's break. The IRO is in the j/s for takeoff but actually sits in the right seat for landing, taking over the FO's duties where the FO takes the j/s.
Just curious, why all the seat shuffling?
Here at AA (and as I understand it, at most airlines) - an IRO is ALWAYS in the j/s for both takeoff and landing. The FO is ALWAYS in the right seat for takeoff and landing. We never shuffle seats around for takeoff and landing.
We also have straight IRO lines - if you bid an IRO line, you are IRO for the whole month, and may never get a landing (many folks do that on purpose so they can expire and go down to sims every 3 months, which = more $$$.)
Hope I didn't confuse everyone, thanks for any clarification.
12-06-2011, 12:53 PM
#4
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Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
AA;
This is how we do it:
Pilots flying the takeoff do the landing.
If the Capt flies over the FO sitting in the right seat for TO and LDG is the IRO on the homeward leg.
If FO is flying over he is IRO on the way back. Of course the capt occupies the Left seat at all times
Pilot doing the TO and LDG gets the break of their choice. (Most take mid)
IRO normally gets first break
PM normally gets last break.
Pilots are required to be up front one hr prior to touchdown
No pilot should be in a command seat for more than four hours before landing.
FOr ULH they can split the flight in half or do a Long, Long, Short, Short sequence for breaks. It is up to the crew. In reality the three man ops can do what they want to but the way I described is the preferred method. We do have crews that let one pilot do the takeoff and one the landing, and capt always takes mid break.
This is how we do it:
Pilots flying the takeoff do the landing.
If the Capt flies over the FO sitting in the right seat for TO and LDG is the IRO on the homeward leg.
If FO is flying over he is IRO on the way back. Of course the capt occupies the Left seat at all times
Pilot doing the TO and LDG gets the break of their choice. (Most take mid)
IRO normally gets first break
PM normally gets last break.
Pilots are required to be up front one hr prior to touchdown
No pilot should be in a command seat for more than four hours before landing.
FOr ULH they can split the flight in half or do a Long, Long, Short, Short sequence for breaks. It is up to the crew. In reality the three man ops can do what they want to but the way I described is the preferred method. We do have crews that let one pilot do the takeoff and one the landing, and capt always takes mid break.
12-06-2011, 01:06 PM
#5
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 7ERB, no M88, no 7ER, no A320, NEXT!
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
AA;
This is how we do it:
Pilots flying the takeoff do the landing.
If the Capt flies over the FO sitting in the right seat for TO and LDG is the IRO on the homeward leg.
If FO is flying over he is IRO on the way back. Of course the capt occupies the Left seat at all times
Pilot doing the TO and LDG gets the break of their choice. (Most take mid)
IRO normally gets first break
PM normally gets last break.
Pilots are required to be up front one hr prior to touchdown
No pilot should be in a command seat for more than four hours before landing.
FOr ULH they can split the flight in half or do a Long, Long, Short, Short sequence for breaks. It is up to the crew. In reality the three man ops can do what they want to but the way I described is the preferred method. We do have crews that let one pilot do the takeoff and one the landing, and capt always takes mid break.
This is how we do it:
Pilots flying the takeoff do the landing.
If the Capt flies over the FO sitting in the right seat for TO and LDG is the IRO on the homeward leg.
If FO is flying over he is IRO on the way back. Of course the capt occupies the Left seat at all times
Pilot doing the TO and LDG gets the break of their choice. (Most take mid)
IRO normally gets first break
PM normally gets last break.
Pilots are required to be up front one hr prior to touchdown
No pilot should be in a command seat for more than four hours before landing.
FOr ULH they can split the flight in half or do a Long, Long, Short, Short sequence for breaks. It is up to the crew. In reality the three man ops can do what they want to but the way I described is the preferred method. We do have crews that let one pilot do the takeoff and one the landing, and capt always takes mid break.
The seat shuffling thing was a NWA practice. If you were in the right seat for takeoff then you occupied the js for landing. I haven't seen that when flying with north guys. The DAL guys do it the way described above.
And for the record, I am NOT sayin one way is better than the other...
12-06-2011, 01:10 PM
#6
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
g.
If the Capt flies over the FO sitting in the right seat for TO and LDG is the IRO on the homeward leg.
If FO is flying over he is IRO on the way back. Of course the capt occupies the Left seat at all times
If the Capt flies over the FO sitting in the right seat for TO and LDG is the IRO on the homeward leg.
If FO is flying over he is IRO on the way back. Of course the capt occupies the Left seat at all times
We have no such rule of requiring all crewmembers back 1 hr before landing... most of our CAs just tell us 35mins works fine.
Here, also, IRO gets 1st break, PF gets 2nd, and PM gets last.
Otherwise, understood the rest. At AA it has always been a seniority position - if you're senior enough to bid FO, you bid FO... we have many folks here that only bid IRO for months on end and get their bounces in the sim every 3 months for extra $$$ (extra 3 hrs on top of guarantee.) No democracy here!
I do like the Delta way a little better... ensures everyone gets a round. We have some 6 day trips that go, for ex. DFW-CDG-JFK-CDG-DFW. If you bid that trip as IRO, you will not get a landing once on all those flights, even if there is a crew change. You have to practically beg for one and even then the FO may not give it up... "you're senior enough, shoulda bid FO if you want a landing.." I know, totally lame and ancestral worship.
Although I ALWAYS offer my landing to the IRO, and most FOs have offered me theirs if I ask.
12-06-2011, 01:11 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by aa73
OK, just trying to understand your system, as it came up in discussion on one of our int'l flights some time ago.
I was told that you guys decide who is FO and who is IRO when you meet up in Operations. True?
On the outbound leg (say, JFK-Europe) with the CA flying pilot - the FO is in the right seat for takeoff, and in the left seat during CA's break. The IRO is in the j/s for takeoff but actually sits in the right seat for landing, taking over the FO's duties where the FO takes the j/s.
Just curious, why all the seat shuffling?
Here at AA (and as I understand it, at most airlines) - an IRO is ALWAYS in the j/s for both takeoff and landing. The FO is ALWAYS in the right seat for takeoff and landing. We never shuffle seats around for takeoff and landing.
We also have straight IRO lines - if you bid an IRO line, you are IRO for the whole month, and may never get a landing (many folks do that on purpose so they can expire and go down to sims every 3 months, which = more $$$.)
Hope I didn't confuse everyone, thanks for any clarification.
I was told that you guys decide who is FO and who is IRO when you meet up in Operations. True?
On the outbound leg (say, JFK-Europe) with the CA flying pilot - the FO is in the right seat for takeoff, and in the left seat during CA's break. The IRO is in the j/s for takeoff but actually sits in the right seat for landing, taking over the FO's duties where the FO takes the j/s.
Just curious, why all the seat shuffling?
Here at AA (and as I understand it, at most airlines) - an IRO is ALWAYS in the j/s for both takeoff and landing. The FO is ALWAYS in the right seat for takeoff and landing. We never shuffle seats around for takeoff and landing.
We also have straight IRO lines - if you bid an IRO line, you are IRO for the whole month, and may never get a landing (many folks do that on purpose so they can expire and go down to sims every 3 months, which = more $$$.)
Hope I didn't confuse everyone, thanks for any clarification.
That is not the way it is done at Delta. The Captain decides who will get the TO's and landings based on currency. The pilot who is the relief pilot sits on the jumpseat for TO and Landing and sits in the seat of whoever is on break. The Captain and FO for the flight do not change seats. What you have described sounds something like the old NW procedure.
12-06-2011, 01:14 PM
#8
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by sailingfun
That is not the way it is done at Delta. The Captain decides who will get the TO's and landings based on currency. The pilot who is the relief pilot sits on the jumpseat for TO and Landing and sits in the seat of whoever is on break. The Captain and FO for the flight do not change seats. What you have described sounds something like the old NW procedure.
12-06-2011, 01:49 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: retired
Posts: 560
I think it would be easier to understand if we said we don't have any IRO's at Delta just FO's. On my last trip one FO did the t/o and the other did the landing. Breaks are pretty much done by seniority and as CA I almost always take the middle on a 3 man crew.
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