astroglider

This sums up the two main sticking points many guys have.

Maybe an "old timer" might be able to explain to me why Business Express was allowed to fly the BAE 146's, which led to ASA flying BAE 146's, which was the camel's nose under the tent, which led to the explosion of RJ's painted in Delta colors, which prevented thousands of Delta mainline jobs. Why were jets ever allowed to be flown by the Regionals? I hear guys complain about having to fly under the "B" scale pay rates. Many of those same guys voted to allow RJ's which in a decade effectively halved the size of the U.S. mainline pilot groups, relegating thousands of pilots to a "C" scale...and I just don't remember much fuss over the RJ's by DALPA. Fast forward to 2012...allowing Delta to effectively trade-in 50-seaters for 76-seaters is not a solution, especially for an anemic 4%, 8.5%, 3% and 3%. We need to push back on this.

Sure I know we should forget about trying to "fix scope in one fell swoop" and just be grateful for these small raises. After all, they represent a cumulative pay rate for the Delta pilot which has increased by 53% since 2008. 53% since 2008, so what, the stock market is up almost the same percentage since it bottomed in March of 2009. Does that mean I am a financial genius because my portfolio is up 53% since 2008? Not at all. Why did DALPA "cherry-pick" the dates? Maybe instead DALPA should use a timeline that actually means something, like say what has happened to our pay since 2000, or 1996, or even 1985 (corrected for inflation of course), now the Delta pilot wage increase is, well, not an increase at all....using this timeline, a real timeline, the timeline we've all lived through, the timeline every one of us thought about when we filled out our Contract Surveys, using a real timeline makes these pay raises seem insulting.

No matter what is done to the rest of the Contract, if we don't fix Scope and Compensation this will be a Concessionary Contract.

sailingfun

Delta had no scope when the 146's came online. They could have just as easily been 757's. No Delta pilots voted to allow the 146's as you state. In fact they lead to a big fight in the 91 contract which introduced the first real scope into Delta contracts. There are a lot of reasons why the industry evolved the way it did. The one fact often left out is that with a limited number of seats the pay rates are also going to be limited. The passenger market is not fixed in numbers. If your going to use a RJ to pick passengers up in a small town and fly them to a hub to move them down the road it has to be at a cost they will pay. If the cost gets to high they will drive a few hours to a airport with cheaper mainline service. There is a lot more involved in the whole RJ issue then just pilot pay and scope. The entire industry has upsized dramatically in the last 30 years. The average number of seats has soared. It was not that many years ago that the largest aircraft any mainline airline flew was a 150 seat 707.

Bucking Bar

(Sailing's reply got in before mine, this is a response to the original post)

FWIW, ASA was not flying Delta's code at that time. It was flying its own code independent of Delta. It could have flown 737's and was looking at them when Delta bought the Company for defensive reasons. (George and John were too cheap to buy 757's)

ASA was integrated into Delta's code and Delta took operational control. It should have been merged / stapled and this scope problem should not exist today.

This TA allows Republic to do the same thing as ASA nearly accomplished.

astroglider

Ok thanks for the historical perspective. Wasn't on the property then...just going by what was posted....I know, I know...take every post with a grain of salt.

RamenNoodles

Actually ASA was operating as a DCI carrier at the time the 146's were on property. If you find pictures of them, you'll see they were painted in Delta colors. ASA was one of the first airlines in the 1980's to feed Delta with the "Connection" brand. It was different though, because ASA determined their own routes and schedules. Of course, Delta management has drastically changed the branding in the last few years so no one knows when they set foot on an outsourced plane.

Delta purchased ASA and Comair because they were gearing up to be Delta's two largest competitors in the two largest hubs.

DoubleTrouble

The 146's were not allowed by the 1986 contract. From the '86 agreement:
SECTION 1

RECOGNITION AND SCOPE
A. RECOGNITION
1. The Air Line Pilots Association, International, has furnished the Company proof that a majority of the airline pilots employed by the Company have designated the Association to represent them and in their behalf negotiate and conclude an Agreement with the Company as to rates of pay, rules and working conditions covering the pilots in the employ of the Company in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
2. Nothing in the Agreement shall be construed to limit or deny any pilot hereunder any rights or privileges to which he may be entitled under the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.

B. SCOPE
1. Except as permitted in Paragraph 2 of this Section 1.B., all present or future flying performed in and for the service of the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, shall be performed by the pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement of any other applicable agreement between the Company and the Air Line Pilots Association. There shall be no wet-leasing or subcontracting of the Company’s flying. It is specifically understood that this paragraph includes, but is not limited to, all revenue flying, ferry flights, charters, wet leases and /or subcontracting the Company may perform for others and flight training (except fro initial flight training conducted by the factory or manufacturer for the Company).
2. It is agreed that the Company shall not:

a. Acquire and operate as a separate entity any existing airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which would be owned, controlled ( ie.,(a) operational control, (b) appointment of a majority of the Board of Directors, (c) ownership of majority of stock) or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement between Delta Air Lines and the Air Line Pilots Association, except that this subparagraph shall not preclude separate operation of an acquired airline for a phase-in period of up to one year after the effective date of the acquisition under the seniority list of the acquired airline, provided that no pilot on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list is furloughed during such phase-in period.
b. Establish any new airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which would be owned, controlled or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary, unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of this Agreement or any other applicable agreement between Delta Air Lines and the Air Line Pilots Association.
c. Sell, lease, or otherwise transfer any aircraft owned, leased or operated by the Company, or any new or used airline aircraft on firm order from the manufacturer of owner thereof to any airline which operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats and which is owned, controlled or operated by the Company, whether directly or indirectly through a subsidiary controlled by the Company, or by a holding company of which the Company is a subsidiary , unless the flying for such airline is performed by pilots on the Delta Air Lines system seniority list in accordance with the terms of the Agreement of any other applicable agreement between Delta Air lines and the Air Line Pilots Association.
3. In the event the Company acquires an airline that operates aircraft with more than seventy (70) seats in accordance with Paragraph B.2. (a) of this Section:
a. The Company agrees to merge with the acquired airline within one (1) year after the effective date of the acquisition, subject to applicable legal and regulatory requirements;
b. The integration of the seniority lists of the two pilot groups shall be subject to approval by the Company; and
c. Wages and benefits fro the pilots of the acquired airline, to be effective upon the integration of the two seniority lists, shall be negotiated between the Company and Association.

Nothing herein shall entitle either the Company or the Association to negotiate any other provision of the Agreement except as this Agreement otherwise permits.

HalinTexas

I think if you check here Business Express Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, there wasn't enough of a timeline for DALPA to react. It was also very new. Delta, while large, was a player among many as opposed to a titan of industry (and oil refining).

DoubleTrouble

The L-1011 entered Delta revenue service in December 1973.

Roll Inverted and Pull

Delta had 5 747`s also. I believe in 67 or 68, and for a short while, some DC 10`s. Can`t remember the dates exactly...crs has set in.

fireman0174

DC-10s were actually United airplanes.