When you guys finally get one list, a joint contract, and something to block up those code share holes on your international flying, then you can talk. Right now you need to focus on your disaster.

Why do our MD-88/MD-90 pilots make less than Southwest? We fly the same type of routes as Southwest while flying 149/160 people while the Southwest guys are flying 137 people. Our aircraft also have premium seats (first class) while the Southwest jet is all coach. That should count for something. Our 737 pilots will not make what the Southwest pilots make until 2015. Will the Southwest pilots get a raise by then?

I have no idea whether they will get a raise by then. I will betcha this though.. it won't be anything huge if they do. But I would also be willing to bet it would be something on the order that would cause a guy like you to have a cardiac arrest. (because it will be so low) They have been hitting singles for many many years, and it has gotten to where they are now. You wanna swing for the fence with a short term deal. (Babe Ruth also lead the league in strike outs..) Turn this down.. swing for the fence, but be ready to walk back to the dugout too.

Interesting that NOW it is the M88s that have to be competitive with SWA. Time will tell where they are going anyway. The 717s leaving... 737s delayed... growth? mmmmmkay.. From where will that come? Couple that with Ichan's statement that they need to be more cost conscious yada yada yada... Oh, and their contract is amendable in August I believe. Have you heard ANYTHING about their negotiations? Have they exchanged openers? Are they even discussing it? Or will it be some kin of back room deal that would have you lighting a torch and reaching for your pitchfork on your way to DALPA HQ if it happened here?

Aren't you leaving anyway? I don't see how you can stand to be here with so many caving military yes men.

Translation: It's a cost neutral TA...at best.

Carl

The big problem with the pay more than SWA is the idea that SWA has to contribute to get a match - well, with the amount of money they're going to get it would be foolish not to contribute to get the match so I don't buy that argument. Also, their work rules mean that they work FAR FEWER days to get their pay (also way more opportunities for premium pay at SWA - how much premium pay has everyone DAL seen and we're going to see even less with the new ALV and new reserve rules) - the SWA pilots on APC claim the average guy works 12-13 days to get their average pay. With our lines, PBS (no PBS at SWA, by the way), vacation (don't tell me you think 3:15 is a great improvement - I show it as 8.3% - first since BK) and training as pay, no credit, I have to work 15-16 days JUST to get to ALV (take a look at LAX 73B schedules) there is still no comparison between us SWA. Plus, until recently, the profit sharing was way better at SWA - not sure if they're getting much right now. Finally, nothing is this contract is going to create growth so I expect to continue to be stagnated for the remainder of my career at DAL (73n B) which means I will have a 22 year career with my ceiling at 73 F/O - not even a wide body F/O. This contract permanently resets our career at a much lower new normal. Not to mention the holes (and too many extra 76 seaters - I don't care how many 50 seaters they don't want are being retired) in scope. I don't buy this Kool Aid that we are making as much as SWA pilots (just like Tim O telling us we average 1000 hours/year for pay - an urban legend I was told as a new hire - since PBS I get ALV (or reserve guarantee when I was a reserve) and that ends up around 840/year - NOT 1000.

Johnso

Im trying to understand those who disagree with me in regards to scope. Can you elaborate on that answer? Do you not think that management wants to outsource our jobs? Do you think that if they try for additional outsourcing (bigger RJ"s) on the next contract that DALPA will say no? Why?

Not trying to be a smart a$$, really trying to understand. To me this TA allows more mainline jets to be outsourced, as the 70 + seater should of never been allowed to DCI imo.

FB

I believe it's an overall improvement in scope because we said NO to 82 seat RJs, reduced the total amount of DCI hulls, tightened JV and Codeshare language, and tightened overall language. I'm not concerned about just small scope. I'm worried about all scope. I agree that the 70+ seater should have never been allowed to DCI, but I was not allowed to be part of that decision. Unfortunately, it's gone now.

We as a pilot group aren't getting help from anyone either. We as profession will be lucky if AMR doesn't get their way in BK. They're asking for 255 51-88 seat RJs. APA is willing to give up 308 51-81 seat aircraft in ADDITION to 352 70 seat aircraft. That's not what Delta or NWA gave up in BK. If we call management's bluff, and AMR gets in between what they're asking for and what APA is asking for, how do you think RA's scope proposal will look then? Just food for thought.

76 seat is status quo at the current amount and this TA adds thus changing status quo. I guess I'm just too stubborn to point out this is the same garbage that too many bought in the '90's. They aren't parking the 50's as a concession just as they didn't park the ATR's and Bros for the pilot group's benefit. The camel doesn't have its nose under the tent, it's helping itself to a drink!

Hey genius our disaster will be 100% affected by this TA which is exactly why my CEO digs the visionary thinking of RA sponsored by ALPA.

Quote Count Chocula/Sismek

"We will be responsive to the impact of the new Delta TA in our negotiations and will need to adjust our current contract proposal to be competitive with the Delta TA. Our proposal will include significant pay rate increases that are competitive with the new Delta TA, as well as scope and work rules that are competitive with the new Delta TA and permit us to remain competitive in the airline business."

I can assure you until DAL ALPA got involved our stance was no more big RJ's period. You guys pass this and the NMB will put us on ice for that stance as the 90 seat hull will be overly shown as outsource only. Man I hope that carrot tastes good.