Bluto

For those of you who suggest voting no will have no positive result aside from extending our current PWA, I'm curious why you think we even have the ability to vote?

A few years ago SkyWest, (a non-union DCI and UAL regional feeder) had a pay package that felt very similar to this TA. It was much simpler: very small raise (2%-ish), vague promises of growth if quickly voted in, but the spirit of the agreement was similar.

The pilots' volunteer representatives claimed they would be foolish to vote down a free raise, even one as paltry as the one offered. Since they were non-union, they claimed they had no leverage and should take whatever was offered if it was an improvement. Many asked, "If we have no leverage, and can negotiate only 2% raises after years of stagnation, why do they even allow us to vote? Will a "no" vote really not gain the "negotiators" any leverage?" The pilots were told that it would not.

The package was voted down. The representatives were right. Management walked away happy that the pilots had voted down a package that would have cost, according to one upper manager, "One million dollars!"

Please tell me the environment at Delta is different than it was at a regional where pilots payed $0 for their 'student body government' style of representation.

Do we really have no more leverage than they do? And if not, what is wrong with our system?

scambo1

What is wrong with our system is a National and Airline union leadership team with no moral conviction to fight for their constituents. IOW they fail in the leadership department.

JungleBus

And worse yet, blame it on the legislative and legal environment while making very little effort to change either. ALPA PAC keeps asking for my dollars but has yet to call for the repeal or amendment of the RLA! CAPA has done it...why not ALPA?

All the focus on the RLA frankly ignores the fact that it's our hand on the brake. No flight goes out unless we say so. Even the New York subway drivers got that concept, and had leaders willing to go to jail to defend it.

texavia

Do you mean that there is union labor that really is union labor, that they don't ever forget it and more importantly they don't let anyone else a company or the government ever forget it either?

Sink r8

The question itself is flawed. Voting it down doesn't remove our leverage, it just removes the deal* and tells Delta and ALPA that we don't see the early track as having yielded enough value, and we estimate we'll do better with the traditional route, and the leverage of a strike. That's what we're voting on.

What voting this down doesn't do, is to increase our leverage, or guarantee any negotiations before the normal track.

*I understand both parties agreed this is a non- prejudicial deal, i.e. it cannot be used as the basis for any subsequent deal.

More Bacon

That's the OPINION of one guy. Backed up by no facts whatsoever.

He'd like you to think it's indisputable, but it most certainly is.

MatchPoint

The package was voted down at SkyWest but within a few months we had a new one with larger raises and better language.

Bucking Bar

Someone asked me to reiterate my sports analogy, so I will. I will say right up front I don't like the kind of post I'm writing because it is mostly addressing subjective information and non-facts, which I try to stay away from.

This TA allows us to win the regional championship by one point (7 to 6) if we go for the field goal. We've got a good kicker and we know he will score.

The alumni association called in from Vegas where they placed their bets on us winning by more than three. Further, the TV network says a field goal win is boring.

Meanwhile our own offensive team tells us to go for the field goal. They have given up field position and there have been turn overs. We know the referees are on the other teams side and we don't feel like we can trust them, particularly near the end zone.

We are the team manager. What play do we call ?

The number of factors which would have to line up for the "hail Mary" are pretty significant and unlikely:

1. The Negotiating Committee's credibility and to some extent the MEC's credibility would be damaged by it being demonstrated that they TA'd an agreement which pilots would not pass. This conveys a lack of authority.
2. The NC would have to be restaffed. It would be logical to assume we made the best choice before, so the second choice would be, well ... our second choice.
3. Management would have to be compelled to offer more to the second string team ... why would they? Why offer anything if they are put in the position of negotiating against themselves, against an agreement they thought they had locked up?
4. We also would have to somehow control the direction of our negotiating team. Survey says pay before anything else. Is that really what we want? How do we direct the second team? Complete recall of the MEC?
5. So we recall the MEC, or vote the DPA in. How does that fix the first three problems ?

Those who think we vote this down and management falls over itself offering X (more of whatever it is you want that probably differs from the survey) just are not being realistic. To believe such a thing completely discredits the notion that anyone at the table was there in good faith.

There are very real reasons why most no votes are eventually resolved with a agreement which is concessionary when compared to the initial TA.

Anyone who says something was left on the table is guessing with less information than our negotiators had.

Why would anyone on the negotiating committee wish to leave anything on the table?

Bucking Bar

Because it looked kinda of bad for you to trail the ASA pilots by so much and management did not want you voting in ALPA.

Hey you did score the first CRJ-900's when management sought self help by transferring airplanes on ASA's Certificate to you. Thank goodness the FAA stepped in to say "no, SkyWest can not operate ASA's airplanes using the program we approved at ASA." At least you had to put ASA's manuals on SkyWest letterhead while you undermined ASA's contract negotiations you non union rascal. Congratulations on holding the pole position on the race to the bottom until GoJets showed up to steal position.

I can understand why SkyWest pilots don't like this agreement. You've got a lot of old RJ's.

acl65pilot

Bar;
SO you are saying, you do not trust the team in place. Its a safer choice to go with what we have versus sending the same team in that failed to deliver the first time.

Is that fear or just safe voting?