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Age 60 Public Comment Period

Old 10-31-2006, 08:54 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Kieran View Post
Interesting argument.

Here in Australia thankfully things have changed with regards to this forced retirement of 60. I'm surprised to hear about some selfish younger pilots in the states who are in favor of the premature retirement of senior pilots. When I reach 60 - I personally don’t wish to have any age restriction placed upon me, being forced into retirement whilst the aviation bug is urging you to jump in the cockpit of a large aircraft. You only live once! Seniors, Captains/ First Officers have your fun in the aircraft! J - The time will come for you juniors when these seniors are 100% happy with their efforts throughout their career.

I'm sure, once a junior reaches such an age milestone in some 40 years time, one wouldn’t want the pressure of being forced to retire / find employment.


Just my opinion.
Excellent Opinion!
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Old 11-01-2006, 03:49 AM
  #42  
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The airline industry is littered with sob stories -- especially in the last 20 years and the retirement age has never changed. When Eastern and Pam Am failed I didn’t see any mad rush to change the retirement age back then – most guys went back out and looked for new jobs.

There is something very sad that the guys retiring don’t seem to understand -- having an airline job is not the only job around nor is it their divine right to have one. There are other jobs out there both flying and non-flying. In fact, due to the crappy pay and volatility at most of the legacies now, I would say that well over 50% of the co-pilots I fly with are working on alternate professions. Why are the senior guys immune to this fact? Yes, the industry has changed. Since the senior guys have experienced some bad luck; instead of making some positive changes to the profession like getting better pay and retirements, now look for an easy target and are seeking to take out their aggression on the lower part of the seniority list. Their agenda is not only to completely erase an upper retirement age, but to keep their low seniority numbers and high paying jobs intact. Make no mistake about it, this is class warfare pitting pilots against pilots – the have’s verses the have not’s.

Moreover, this has got to be one of the most poorly planned out pieces of legislation to ever hit the airlines. Watch out junior guys – a new b-scale is coming to an airline near you -- courtesy of the senior captains that want to abrogate our seniority lists and hold on to their high paying jobs another 5 plus years.

Here are a few unknowns these guys don’t have any idea of the impact to our careers:

1. Seniority progression – How will basically eliminating any retirements for five years or more impact the lower ¾ of the seniority list? Junior crewmembers at slow or shrinking airlines will be hit especially hard. SWA, don’t think your immune. You’re losing most of your hedges next year. The end result is many guys will find themselves working the additional five years just to make back the money they lost in the first place due to delayed promotions and stagnation. The guys sitting in the most senior seats will be the lotto winners in all of this and will come at the junior guy’s expense.
2. Retirements – How will the early-out penalties work out in coming contracts?
3. Pay – You think our historically high pay scales are due to management liking us – no – it’s due mainly to the age 60 retirement. Stretch out the retirement age and watch the pressure to either reduce our wages outright or continue to let inflation eat away at them.
4. Safety – Common sense dictates that our flying skills diminish as we age. As much as we want to believe we can fly forever, all you got to do is pick up a newspaper to see how American’s are more overweight and out of shape on a national average than ever. Are there some guys that can make it – Sure – but this national law must be written for the lowest common denominator. Our commercial aviation safety demands it.
5. Lawsuits – What happens to the poor SOB that misses the age change by one day or for that matter find themselves in the 60-65 bracket when the retirement changes. We all better count on a class action lawsuit from this group for them to get back on the property. I, for one, think they have a pretty good shot at winning. If they are successful, then where and to what job, position or seniority numbers do they come back to?
6. Union cohesiveness – This law will be one of the most divisive since B-scale hit in the 80’s. At carriers where there has been basically no progression for the last five years and then adding on another five years of stagnation will make for especially ugly relations and low morale between the senior and junior.
7. Longevity -- How will flying an additional five years of all-nighters and spending five more years in a stress filled environment impact our golden years? Is this the fly to you die rule.

I’m not trying to change the older guy’s viewpoint on this. I can’t. Their selfishness and greed are too much for them to clearly see the long term implications to the industry. All they can see are the dollars in their wallets. What they can’t see is the economic harm they are seeking to impose on both the lower part of the seniority list and the profession itself.

If you don’t like the fraud the senior guy’s are attempting to pull, then write your Congressman and the FAA. Let them know your thoughts. This can be defeated.

Age 65 -- good for a few and bad for the many.

AA767AV8TOR
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Old 11-01-2006, 04:16 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Packer Backer View Post
I was talking about keeping the medicals the way they currently are for those of us below 60. Only those above 60 would be required to get a class 1a. It should include BMI requirements, cholesterol limits, tighter BP limits, stress test cardio ekg, a full MRI, and some sort of mental reasoning test. All that and keep them in the right seat.
Packer,

I know exactly what your post was saying! The idea that you want to keep the above tests reserved only for the old folks is absurd. Either we start getting real physicals for all age groups or your argument allows those unhealthy at a younger age to fool the system. I thought one of the big reasons to keep the age 60 rule was safety. I will sign up for more stringent physicals. Many out there are afraid to subject themselves to better physicals because they are already "70" physically.
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Old 11-01-2006, 04:30 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by LAfrequentflyer View Post
I'll be starting a aviation career later than most @ 42. I'd like to work as a pilot in 121 for as long as possible. If I want to work and can hold a class 1 / class 1a (good idea - i'm for it) and pass all appropriate line checks I should be able to.


-LAFF
Well, the unfortunate thing is that if this passes you'll have to wait longer to start that career because of the lack of openings in the current job market. So it might be you'll be 50 or so before "starting this career."
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Old 11-01-2006, 05:46 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Kieran View Post
I'm surprised to hear about some selfish younger pilots in the states who are in favor of the premature retirement of senior pilots. When I reach 60 - I personally don’t wish to have any age restriction placed upon me, being forced into retirement whilst the aviation bug is urging you to jump in the cockpit of a large aircraft. You only live once!...I'm sure, once a junior reaches such an age milestone in some 40 years time, one wouldn’t want the pressure of being forced to retire / find employment....Just my opinion.
Out of the mouths of babes...

Nice job, Kieran!
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Old 11-01-2006, 05:57 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by AA767AV8TOR View Post
There is something very sad that the guys retiring don’t seem to understand -- having an airline job is not the only job around nor is it their divine right to have one.Age 65 -- good for a few and bad for the many.

AA767AV8TOR
Neither is it your divine right to upgrade on a set schedule. All your arguments are based on finances...yours. You want that left seat paycheck as soon as possible for as long as possible.

Unfortunately, the one issue you never address is fairness. Why is it fair for an international treaty (ICAO) to require the U.S. to allow foreign pilots to exercise their licenses in U.S. airspace until age 65 while U.S. pilots are denied the same rights by U.S. law?

Why is it fair for one U.S. law to require only pilots to retire at age 60, yet another denies them Social Security and Medicare until they turn 62?

We all understand your agenda: "Get out of my seat, oldtimer!", your contrary obfuscations and protestations notwithstanding.

"Me thinks the lady doth protest TOO much!"
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Old 11-01-2006, 05:59 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by fecav8r View Post
Well, the unfortunate thing is that if this passes you'll have to wait longer to start that career because of the lack of openings in the current job market. So it might be you'll be 50 or so before "starting this career."
You may be right. However, like everything else in this 'career' no one knows what tomorrow holds...

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Old 11-01-2006, 06:39 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Velocipede View Post
Neither is it your divine right to upgrade on a set schedule. All your arguments are based on finances...yours. You want that left seat paycheck as soon as possible for as long as possible.

Unfortunately, the one issue you never address is fairness. Why is it fair for an international treaty (ICAO) to require the U.S. to allow foreign pilots to exercise their licenses in U.S. airspace until age 65 while U.S. pilots are denied the same rights by U.S. law?

Why is it fair for one U.S. law to require only pilots to retire at age 60, yet another denies them Social Security and Medicare until they turn 62?

We all understand your agenda: "Get out of my seat, oldtimer!", your contrary obfuscations and protestations notwithstanding.


"Me thinks the lady doth protest TOO much!"
Actually I have the following reservations:

Pay Scales- do you really think they will let you fly topped out for longer? Look for 5 yr longer pay scales during your next contract talks.

B-Funds -created to offset the difference between retirement and SS

Will 60 now become an early out with a penalty?

If you have an over 60 Captain and over 60 F/O who bid the same trip who gets it?

What will happen to the disability Insurance we carry now?

If ICAO did the extensive study as you proclaimed and says it’s safe to go over 60. Then why the restriction of no F/O over 60 if the Captain is over 60? Part of the move to pass this in ICAO was the shortage of pilots that they are experiencing now.

Why make the new medical requirements for all and not just the over 60 guys?

As far as fairness between ICAO and FAA, last time I did my Jepps before we dumped them there were hundreds if not thousands of FAA and ICAO differences.

Before you say all the above will have to be negotiated, we would not be in this situation if we could have stopped the slide down. Why now and not during deregulation when Pan Am, Branff fell on hard times? O wait I know you were just starting out and wanted to upgrade or come off furlough.

Actually my agenda is the Status Quo, I have no agenda but continue as we have before and not to change rules in my favor at the expense of others.
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Old 11-01-2006, 06:45 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Velocipede View Post
Unfortunately, the one issue you never address is fairness. Why is it fair for an international treaty (ICAO) to require the U.S. to allow foreign pilots to exercise their licenses in U.S. airspace until age 65 while U.S. pilots are denied the same rights by U.S. law?

Why is it fair for one U.S. law to require only pilots to retire at age 60, yet another denies them Social Security and Medicare until they turn 62?
So I guess in your world of fairness, it’s OK for me to spend an extra five years of throwing gear at a 30%-40% pay differential because of your bad luck and poor planning. How about the guys that will be out of work for another five years or leave the profession altogether because of your bad luck and poor planning.

Furthermore, ICAO can do what the hell it wants. Nothing is stopping you from going overseas to fly. The only reason there doing it overseas is because of a severe pilot shortage not because of any age discrimination issues. We do not have the same problem here in the US. We have thousands on furlough. A fact that none of you greedy and selfish pilots wants to acknowledge.

You’re attempting to sacrifice the junior membership for your own personal gain.

Just remember – you don’t own that seniority number or your seat. It’s granted by contract. A contract that must be renegotiated in the event of a change in retirement age. If you think the junior membership is going to roll over on this one – you are greatly mistaken.

If this rule is changed, since we all we’re hired with an Age 60 retirement expectation – all crewmembers over the age of 60 must go to the end of the list. No exceptions.


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Old 11-01-2006, 06:57 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by AA767AV8TOR View Post
So I guess in your world of fairness, it’s OK for me to spend an extra five years of throwing gear at a 30%-40% pay differential because of your bad luck and poor planning. How about the guys that will be out of work for another five years or leave the profession altogether because of your bad luck and poor planning.

Furthermore, ICAO can do what the hell it wants. Nothing is stopping you from going overseas to fly. The only reason there doing it overseas is because of a severe pilot shortage not because of any age discrimination issues. We do not have the same problem here in the US. We have thousands on furlough. A fact that none of you greedy and selfish pilots wants to acknowledge.

You’re attempting to sacrifice the junior membership for your own personal gain.

Just remember – you don’t own that seniority number or your seat. It’s granted by contract. A contract that must be renegotiated in the event of a change in retirement age. If you think the junior membership is going to roll over on this one – you are greatly mistaken.

If this rule is changed, since we all we’re hired with an Age 60 retirement expectation – all crewmembers over the age of 60 must go to the end of the list. No exceptions.


AA767AV8TOR
AA767AV8TOR,

Just so you know, there are more out there like you. Unfortunately, its the squeeky wheel syndrome. Hopefully, it doesn't turn out as the saying goes. I have written to my congressmen about stopping the proposed change. Hopefully, many others have as well.

See my prior post on this subject. I also agree once you turn 60 it would be fair to go to the right seat and/or end of the seniority list.
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