20 reasons a 767 Capt switched to a YES vote
06-09-2012, 08:44 PM
#1
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20 reasons a 767 Capt switched to a YES vote
Again from the ALPA web board.
"Among the things I considered:
1. The other major airlines are pulling us down (Those pesky elephants keep showing up in the room.) RA will give us 20% more, what he's saving from parking RJ's, but not 30-40% more. The man knows how to make a deal. We are making money but it's still competitive out there. You can want more all day.
2. There are virtually no other unions here. Luckily we have a union but Delta management’s main goals is to keep all other unions out. Management will NEVER cave if we vote no. Business 701: Don't ever let your union workers push you around in a major way when you just spent a year beating back unions from organizing EVERYONE else. Die first.
3. You realize part of the reason the other airline pilots are whacked is because they keep shooting themselves in the foot . . . by asking for 45% raises and getting 0%. Or not merging reasonably like we did. It's indicative of how they can not compromise or reason. We did. And as much as it sucks, slow and steady adds up to 53% more since BK with this TA. I know it sucks. Life's a ***** and then you die. Not gonna get it all at once.
4. No one likes hearing it but there are still black swans flying everywhere. There always will be. They are actually common. No black swans is not normal. We work for an airline. Get over it.
5. 4-8-3-3 sucks until you realize it's $2,000-$3,000, depending on your seat, per month more. It's a house payment or college savings for your kids. It's not chump change. No house or kids? You're an airline pilot. Buy a boat or a Porshe. It's also 6.15% per year as of the amendable date. Feel better?
6. I read the contract and concluded that I would have to have a very big chip on my shoulder to vote no. I don't even have a small chip.
7. After realizing how good the contract was I decided I did not want to participate in mutual group suicide.
8. Some who are opposed to the contract would be opposed to any contract. Their main goal is not to vote down the contract. Their main goal is to start their own union, *, and really could care less about how this contract may help me and my family. As such they do not have my best interests in mind.
9. I read all the Negotiator Notepads. I'm impressed. Detailed logical explanations. Many, many improvements. I read them all.
10. It's a 20% raise. In 2 1/2 years. During the Great Recession. Early
11. Reserve is better. The details are intriquing. So if ALV moves to 84 and you’re on reserve you could possibly go to 99 hours. But this is increasingly difficult because everyone has to be in the same top bucket in order to get a trip that takes you that high. So, it is possible but not as likely as would be believed at first glance. If you put in a yellow slip you’ll have a chance to go up to 99 if you want. Otherwise you still may be able to hang back some. See 12.
12. Manning and the new reserve rules. The staffing formula will prevent a back slide in personnel. If reserves fly more, causing less reserves to be available in category, they must add more pilots. The formula is there. Kind of fascinating too. Ask a rep with more detailed knowledge. Get the facts before shooting from the hip and assuming this will lead to a major loss of jobs. Very interesting.
13. I found out a 13 year USAir copilot makes $70,000 a year. With this TA our A-320 copilots will make $149,250. Stunning. What else says contrast?
14. As a 767 Captain I now make $189 per hour and with the international override of $6 it’s $195 per hour. By January 1, 2015 with this TA a 717 Captain will make $195 per hour. If you upgrade to 717 Captain you’re making $200 G’s. As much as I make now.
15. We get the 717 for sure. If you’re in the bottom 1/3 you want this so you’re further away from a possible furlough. For every pilot hired below you that is just a little more increase in the comfort level. Up to 1000 pilots could be hired below you over the next 2 years. It’s a shift in flying from RJ’s to us that happens sooner rather than later. In this industry you want it sooner.
16. We are LOSING a net 5,580 RJ seats.
We are GAINING a net 9,680 717 mainline seats. After hearing people screaming for years about RJ's this a major positive shift. It is what it is. We will have many less RJ’s than any other legacy carrier. I strongly dislike 50 seat RJ's. I hate nonreving on them and our passengers hate flying on them too. We're getting rid of 186 of them. It’s a trend that will continue and can be built on.
17. The domestic block hour share of mainline will go from 54% to 64%. This is good.
18. Duty Period Minimum increased to 4+30. For me this is a big deal. I just flew a SFO redeye worth 12+14. With the new TA I would get 13+30. A 10.3% increase. I do about 3-4 of these a month. 4-5 hours more a month. $1,000 to $1,200 more. It makes a difference.
19. International codeshare restrictions are tightened from 50% going to 40%.
Alaska 50% to 35%. Perfect? No. Better? Yes.
20. The TA in its entirety is a big improvement. The bottom line is that this will put us very far ahead of every major legacy carrier and close to or past the often mentioned SWA, Fed Ex and UPS. And not just in pay."
"Among the things I considered:
1. The other major airlines are pulling us down (Those pesky elephants keep showing up in the room.) RA will give us 20% more, what he's saving from parking RJ's, but not 30-40% more. The man knows how to make a deal. We are making money but it's still competitive out there. You can want more all day.
2. There are virtually no other unions here. Luckily we have a union but Delta management’s main goals is to keep all other unions out. Management will NEVER cave if we vote no. Business 701: Don't ever let your union workers push you around in a major way when you just spent a year beating back unions from organizing EVERYONE else. Die first.
3. You realize part of the reason the other airline pilots are whacked is because they keep shooting themselves in the foot . . . by asking for 45% raises and getting 0%. Or not merging reasonably like we did. It's indicative of how they can not compromise or reason. We did. And as much as it sucks, slow and steady adds up to 53% more since BK with this TA. I know it sucks. Life's a ***** and then you die. Not gonna get it all at once.
4. No one likes hearing it but there are still black swans flying everywhere. There always will be. They are actually common. No black swans is not normal. We work for an airline. Get over it.
5. 4-8-3-3 sucks until you realize it's $2,000-$3,000, depending on your seat, per month more. It's a house payment or college savings for your kids. It's not chump change. No house or kids? You're an airline pilot. Buy a boat or a Porshe. It's also 6.15% per year as of the amendable date. Feel better?
6. I read the contract and concluded that I would have to have a very big chip on my shoulder to vote no. I don't even have a small chip.
7. After realizing how good the contract was I decided I did not want to participate in mutual group suicide.
8. Some who are opposed to the contract would be opposed to any contract. Their main goal is not to vote down the contract. Their main goal is to start their own union, *, and really could care less about how this contract may help me and my family. As such they do not have my best interests in mind.
9. I read all the Negotiator Notepads. I'm impressed. Detailed logical explanations. Many, many improvements. I read them all.
10. It's a 20% raise. In 2 1/2 years. During the Great Recession. Early
11. Reserve is better. The details are intriquing. So if ALV moves to 84 and you’re on reserve you could possibly go to 99 hours. But this is increasingly difficult because everyone has to be in the same top bucket in order to get a trip that takes you that high. So, it is possible but not as likely as would be believed at first glance. If you put in a yellow slip you’ll have a chance to go up to 99 if you want. Otherwise you still may be able to hang back some. See 12.
12. Manning and the new reserve rules. The staffing formula will prevent a back slide in personnel. If reserves fly more, causing less reserves to be available in category, they must add more pilots. The formula is there. Kind of fascinating too. Ask a rep with more detailed knowledge. Get the facts before shooting from the hip and assuming this will lead to a major loss of jobs. Very interesting.
13. I found out a 13 year USAir copilot makes $70,000 a year. With this TA our A-320 copilots will make $149,250. Stunning. What else says contrast?
14. As a 767 Captain I now make $189 per hour and with the international override of $6 it’s $195 per hour. By January 1, 2015 with this TA a 717 Captain will make $195 per hour. If you upgrade to 717 Captain you’re making $200 G’s. As much as I make now.
15. We get the 717 for sure. If you’re in the bottom 1/3 you want this so you’re further away from a possible furlough. For every pilot hired below you that is just a little more increase in the comfort level. Up to 1000 pilots could be hired below you over the next 2 years. It’s a shift in flying from RJ’s to us that happens sooner rather than later. In this industry you want it sooner.
16. We are LOSING a net 5,580 RJ seats.
We are GAINING a net 9,680 717 mainline seats. After hearing people screaming for years about RJ's this a major positive shift. It is what it is. We will have many less RJ’s than any other legacy carrier. I strongly dislike 50 seat RJ's. I hate nonreving on them and our passengers hate flying on them too. We're getting rid of 186 of them. It’s a trend that will continue and can be built on.
17. The domestic block hour share of mainline will go from 54% to 64%. This is good.
18. Duty Period Minimum increased to 4+30. For me this is a big deal. I just flew a SFO redeye worth 12+14. With the new TA I would get 13+30. A 10.3% increase. I do about 3-4 of these a month. 4-5 hours more a month. $1,000 to $1,200 more. It makes a difference.
19. International codeshare restrictions are tightened from 50% going to 40%.
Alaska 50% to 35%. Perfect? No. Better? Yes.
20. The TA in its entirety is a big improvement. The bottom line is that this will put us very far ahead of every major legacy carrier and close to or past the often mentioned SWA, Fed Ex and UPS. And not just in pay."
06-09-2012, 09:24 PM
#3
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Position: Retired, again...
Posts: 608
Bill,
As to #20 on your list : you are wildly inaccurate, or you haven't actually read a FedEx contract.
Respectfully,
BG
As to #20 on your list : you are wildly inaccurate, or you haven't actually read a FedEx contract.
Respectfully,
BG
06-09-2012, 09:34 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by FedElta
Bill,
As to #20 on your list : you are wildly inaccurate, or you haven't actually read a FedEx contract.
Respectfully,
BG
As to #20 on your list : you are wildly inaccurate, or you haven't actually read a FedEx contract.
Respectfully,
BG
06-09-2012, 09:36 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by groundstop
06-09-2012, 09:38 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
I'm not the 767 captain, but thanks for the upgrade. I personally wouldn't want to fly for FedEx now, since new hires are going to Cologne, Germany and Hong Kong. No thanks BG.
06-09-2012, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Talked to an MD-11 LCA who is doing OE on new hires who will be based in ANC.
So what do you think of his 20 reasons?
06-09-2012, 10:01 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
Again from the ALPA web board.
"Among the things I considered:
1. The other major airlines are pulling us down ......
"Among the things I considered:
1. The other major airlines are pulling us down ......
This guy is looking at the money (For his college kids or whatever) and I understand that. He is closer to retirement and wants the extra cash. He needs to sell the rest of us on this deal to get that cash. He wont have to deal with so many of the negative repercussions for years to come. Guys lower on the totem pole will.
Each to their own. I'm voting no and encourage the rest of you to do the same. Perhaps we should start a list of 20 plus reasons to vote NO for POS12.
Bill, arent you the one looking at the 717 for your upgrade? I'm sure you can just smell that money. Some people chase money, no matter how big or small. Others look at the other "details" and take pause.
Greed is NOT good. It clouds your judgement and you make stupid mistakes.
06-09-2012, 10:11 PM
#9
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Posts: 302
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
And you don't drink the DPA kool aid? Right... You either agree with this guy or you don't. Give us some reasons if you don't.
This contract has concessions! ***? Did anyone see that coming?
More large RJ's, no thanks. Even after promised growth.
The bottom line is after all the pilot group has given up in the past decade, this is the repayment. I'm not talking about getting back to C2K... I'm talking about mgmt having some respect for the pilot group and not low balling us. Or for that matter, DALPA getting on board with mgmt trying to shove this down our throats.
The last line of defense we have is each other. Hope enough guys have not had the kool aid that you have taken, Bill.
06-09-2012, 10:12 PM
#10
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Jack,
No conspiracy here. I will benefit, as will you, if the 717s arrive. If we get the 717s, I would probably get an upgrade the last year they came. Maybe you would too, and at $195 an hour by 2015, that equals huge raises, for all of us. We could wait it out, since you don't really know if management is bluffing or not. Do you think they are? A hunch? That isn't good enough for most of us.
Please either give reasons why his 20 are false, or give your own 20 against. I am willing to read your reasons. Remember, I am not an ALPA person or volunteer, and was not initially pleased with this TA and sent in a DPA card. I just calmed down and tried to look at reality.
No conspiracy here. I will benefit, as will you, if the 717s arrive. If we get the 717s, I would probably get an upgrade the last year they came. Maybe you would too, and at $195 an hour by 2015, that equals huge raises, for all of us. We could wait it out, since you don't really know if management is bluffing or not. Do you think they are? A hunch? That isn't good enough for most of us.
Please either give reasons why his 20 are false, or give your own 20 against. I am willing to read your reasons. Remember, I am not an ALPA person or volunteer, and was not initially pleased with this TA and sent in a DPA card. I just calmed down and tried to look at reality.
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