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NO Voter Poll - Show us the Way

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Major Legacy, National, and LCC
View Poll Results: My plan for turning this down is:
1. I know a better deal will be offered w/out Sec 6. I can point to a non-strike precedent.
6
11.76%
2. I suspect a better deal is coming soon, based on a hunch the company is bluffing.
9
17.65%
3. I hope there is a better deal coming, and I have no idea of how it's going to happen.
3
5.88%
4. I am prepared to sit tight for Section 6; I know this agreement is non-prejudicial.
33
64.71%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

NO Voter Poll - Show us the Way

Old 06-11-2012, 12:19 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
Finis, its easier on the company to have this pass the first time. Think about that. Our leaders are trying to assure that though company communication and comments in the press. IMO, the press comments have been overly presumptuous. I will not comment on intra company messages.
ACL, I hope you are right and I am wrong as to what will happen. However, all my sources say if we turn this down it will be a sh$t show. The company has a plan B and they will table us for a long time and still make lots of money. The only hope I see is if the no vote is so close that DL will then feel compelled to improve a small portion to get the extra yes votes and still go with plan A.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:23 PM
  #12  
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It is not my job to figure out a path if this thing is voted down anymore than it is my job to figure out who will cover my flight if I call in sick or my job to rebook passengers on the next available flight if a flight cancels.

One thing for sure, this isn't a game. It's a business decision.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:31 PM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by finis72 View Post
ACL, I hope you are right and I am wrong as to what will happen. However, all my sources say if we turn this down it will be a sh$t show. The company has a plan B and they will table us for a long time and still make lots of money. The only hope I see is if the no vote is so close that DL will then feel compelled to improve a small portion to get the extra yes votes and still go with plan A.

Well, I can tell you that your contacts saying that makes great sense if I was the company. It makes their job a lot easier if we just pass this and do not question it. Failing this TA makes them look at plan A which requires the DCI redo but is also significantly cheaper, even with a bunch more value to this deal than plan C,D,E. Plan A is most preferred by all of us, but should we just sit down and take this deal if it will require a ton of leverage down the road to fix? I say no, and after talking to many of the Reps, they all feel money was left on the table, even if they voted yes. Is that money still there? Unknown, and I mean that, but redoing this deal to get the protections and work rule changes along with a path to sunsetting DCI is a sure fire way to get this group to pass this thing at over 90%.

It will not take much, but it will take money and specific wording to get this to pass the second time.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:46 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid View Post
It is not my job to figure out a path if this thing is voted down anymore than it is my job to figure out who will cover my flight if I call in sick or my job to rebook passengers on the next available flight if a flight cancels.

One thing for sure, this isn't a game. It's a business decision.

How the company decides to cover your sick out or reroute passengers has no affect on you personally. You are detached from those outcomes. How the company decides to react to a failed TA will absolutely have an affect on you personally....it may be good or it may be bad. That's where you're analogy falls flat.

While it may not be your job to figure out a path following a failed TA, you should darn well at least consider the possibilities...as you say, this isn't a game, it's a business decision.
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:07 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by DelDah Capt View Post
While it may not be your job to figure out a path following a failed TA, you should darn well at least consider the possibilities...as you say, this isn't a game, it's a business decision.
I have considered the possibilites and I'm willing to accept the outcome, whatever it be. I/ we gave up a huge amount and I'm not going to accept this "carrot" mgt is dangling in front of me. I'm I looking for full (or close to it) restitution, no. I'm a realist. But I also truly believe we can do better, however long that takes.

I also believe it wont take long. I dont believe the fear mongers when they say its gonna be another 3 years, and then go the NMB. Total BS.

But if it does..... I'm willing to go the distance. I will be able to look in the mirror and see some one who stood up to what he believes in.
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:24 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
Well, I can tell you that your contacts saying that makes great sense if I was the company. It makes their job a lot easier if we just pass this and do not question it. Failing this TA makes them look at plan A which requires the DCI redo but is also significantly cheaper, even with a bunch more value to this deal than plan C,D,E. Plan A is most preferred by all of us, but should we just sit down and take this deal if it will require a ton of leverage down the road to fix? I say no, and after talking to many of the Reps, they all feel money was left on the table, even if they voted yes. Is that money still there? Unknown, and I mean that, but redoing this deal to get the protections and work rule changes along with a path to sunsetting DCI is a sure fire way to get this group to pass this thing at over 90%.

It will not take much, but it will take money and specific wording to get this to pass the second time.
If a contract passes by 90% I'm looking for another job, chapter7 is just around the corner.Sunsetting DCI is a pipe dream, sounds good on Internet web boards but the reality is as long as we are a hub and spoke carrier we will have DCI. As long as we are a global carrier we will have code sharing and JV's. It is easy to pick a TA apart especially with the half truths and mis information on the web. What is hard to do is come up with a viable plan in the aftermath of a no vote. You say DL will come back to the table and base it on what a rep said or what you conjecture to be the reason, I say for many reasons they won't. I don't think this TA will pass, for me it is not a big deal either way. I am not being mean spirited when I say I'm at the top of the food chain and therefor a yes or no vote will not affect my QOL. I do believe that a no vote and the ramifications of a no vote will impact the junior pilots. You think some of the intra DL memos are propaganda, I say they fired a shot across our bows and they are not going to back down, they can't now politically. Again I hope you are right but I'll wager you are wrong.
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:33 PM
  #17  
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Finis, I am not commenting on the internal memos. My comment was about the new releases.

As for Plan B for DALPA, I would not put a road map out there right now. Its bad strategy.

I do agree that a NO vote will effect the stock price, but so would a quick solution to that NO vote.

I called the SEA FO rep after his article came out. I wanted to get his understanding of why he felt we could go back and get a quick deal done. I wanted to know why he felt we left money on the table. He was very as honest and candid as he could be within the bounds of his NDA. I suggest you give him a call.

I have talked to other no voter reps and yes voter reps as well. Almost all agree that money was left on the table, but some differ as you and I are about what happens if it gets turned down.

Frankly, I bet this thing passes but not by a lot.
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:36 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52 View Post
I have considered the possibilites and I'm willing to accept the outcome, whatever it be. I/ we gave up a huge amount and I'm not going to accept this "carrot" mgt is dangling in front of me. I'm I looking for full (or close to it) restitution, no. I'm a realist. But I also truly believe we can do better, however long that takes.

I also believe it wont take long. I dont believe the fear mongers when they say its gonna be another 3 years, and then go the NMB. Total BS.

But if it does..... I'm willing to go the distance. I will be able to look in the mirror and see some one who stood up to what he believes in.
I'm voting for the TA because it makes improvements in all areas of the contract. I would not vote yes because of fear, I am pretty much insulated from any ramifications of a no vote. I also look in the mirror and see some one who stood up for what he believes in and is good looking too.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by finis72 View Post
ACL, I hope you are right and I am wrong as to what will happen. However, all my sources say if we turn this down it will be a sh$t show.
You need to quit listening to flight attendants.
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:06 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52 View Post
I have considered the possibilites and I'm willing to accept the outcome, whatever it be. I/ we gave up a huge amount and I'm not going to accept this "carrot" mgt is dangling in front of me. I'm I looking for full (or close to it) restitution, no. I'm a realist. But I also truly believe we can do better, however long that takes.

I also believe it wont take long. I dont believe the fear mongers when they say its gonna be another 3 years, and then go the NMB. Total BS.

But if it does..... I'm willing to go the distance. I will be able to look in the mirror and see some one who stood up to what he believes in.
crewdawg,

You've said that you've considered the long term possibilities and you're willing to live with those consequences in pursuit of something better. I can respect that. One of the reasons that I'm leaning towards a Yes is that while I was initially let down by this TA being below my expectations, I look at the 2015 rate and think that I'm going to be really p*ssed in two and a half years if we're still in negotiations and I'm working under the old rates and I could've had the new ones. But I'm still undecided as I try to figure what plan B for both sides would really look like.

Lastly, you talk about being a 'realist' and 'standing up for what you believe in'. I've heard several UAL folks in these threads talk about standing up for the pilot profession. However, the reality is that in six months, if this TA passes, as a lowly MD88 Capt, I'll have a higher rate than every single person on the UAL list (777, 747, 757, you name it)....and Lord only knows what AMR will be making by then. Are the Airtran guys happy about turning down their first offer.....how about the Frontier guys...the Comair guys. They may all be fighting the good fight, but the 'reality' is that I'm not sure what their point is.
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