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NO Voter Poll - Show us the Way

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Major Legacy, National, and LCC
View Poll Results: My plan for turning this down is:
1. I know a better deal will be offered w/out Sec 6. I can point to a non-strike precedent.
6
11.76%
2. I suspect a better deal is coming soon, based on a hunch the company is bluffing.
9
17.65%
3. I hope there is a better deal coming, and I have no idea of how it's going to happen.
3
5.88%
4. I am prepared to sit tight for Section 6; I know this agreement is non-prejudicial.
33
64.71%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

NO Voter Poll - Show us the Way

Old 06-11-2012, 11:36 AM
  #1  
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Default NO Voter Poll - Show us the Way

I'll agree this TA is marginal. There are some significant gains, but it's just enough to pass.

I see a rational path to voting for this, and an emotional path to voting down. I don't mean to trivialize the emotional aspect: I too want to be proud to go to work.

What I don't see from any no-voter is any sort of credible argument for a path that takes us from where we are, to a better place. I see two problems: 1) I suspect we only want one thing to get this to pass, and that single issue is going to cause us to get an even worse second deal (another poll on that in a separate thread), and 2) I'm being asked to take a sort of faith-based leap, to simply believe that refusing this TA somehow increases our leverage (it doesn't actually change our leverage at all), and that the company is going to simply take the hit.

Problem is, someone is going to lose credibility if we we turn this down, and it's going to have implications in future negotiations. If the company caves, we'll know we only need to turn down their latest offer every time. If we cave and take a worse second deal, we'll reveal our own weakness. Based on precedent on our own JCBA, and recent deals at other airlines, I think precedent is not on our side. There will kost definitely be a winner, and a loser if we call.

So my questions is this: why exactly is your plan after voting this down? Is it...
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:47 AM
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More importantly, we vote this in we prove that we are willing to move well below surveys or mec direction as the to what is acceptable. Its been put out there that both were well above this, and voting it in means that those demands and lines mean little to how we will vote.

Just pointing that one out.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:52 AM
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Good post, problem is you are not going to get many replies because the only plan the no voters have is hope and we all know hope is not a plan. I think Dixon in his latest weekly blurb laid it on the line as to the company response to a no vote. I guess we can hope to get a better deal in section 6 several years from now and hope the NMB sees it our way and grants us a 35% pay raise immediately to make up for the lost income. We can hope they don't furlough during those 3 years as the world economy slows, we can hope the junior pilots enjoy their additional years on the bottom. I could go on and on but you and I see eye to eye on this TA, not great in any way except it's only 3 years, and that's great!
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
More importantly, we vote this in we prove that we are willing to move well below surveys or mec direction as the to what is acceptable. Its been put out there that both were well above this, and voting it in means that those demands and lines mean little to how we will vote.

Just pointing that one out.
How did you get a hold of the survey result and I thought the MEC voted 14-5 on this TA. Did I miss something ?
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by finis72 View Post
How did you get a hold of the survey result and I thought the MEC voted 14-5 on this TA. Did I miss something ?
Read there letters Finis. C20, C1 and C54 where the no votes came from clearly stated that the product did not meet direction nor wants from the pilots.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:01 PM
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I personally dont care who looses credibility. Are there some good to the TA..... Yes. Are there so bad areas...... Yes.

All I know is the TA failed to reach the minimum I was willing to accept in a few of those areas, so it's a NO vote.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:02 PM
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As for a Plan B. Read TT C20 update. Part of the reason for a 40 day window and not a 60 was more time to negotiate. Time from when? Apparently a deadline, and my opinion is that deadline is right before AMR loses exclusivity on Sept 29th. Getting DAL's debt restructured well before the end of 2013 as it will be planned allows them to move and move quickly. They need this deal for that to happen. Everything is interlinked.

I have stated what I would do. Reworking this TA is more beneficial to us and to the company than to play out a traditional section 6. If I were CEO for a day, I would not waste the opportunities coming over a few hundred million in fixes.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by crewdawg52 View Post
I personally dont care who looses credibility. Are there some good to the TA..... Yes. Are there so bad areas...... Yes.

All I know is the TA failed to reach the minimum I was willing to accept in a few of those areas, so it's a NO vote.
Actually a good answer, the only thing I will add is; and I hope we get a better deal. Not much of a plan.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
As for a Plan B. Read TT C20 update. Part of the reason for a 40 day window and not a 60 was more time to negotiate. Time from when? Apparently a deadline, and my opinion is that deadline is right before AMR loses exclusivity on Sept 29th. Getting DAL's debt restructured well before the end of 2013 as it will be planned allows them to move and move quickly. They need this deal for that to happen. Everything is interlinked.

I have stated what I would do. Reworking this TA is more beneficial to us and to the company than to play out a traditional section 6. If I were CEO for a day, I would not waste the opportunities coming over a few hundred million in fixes.
Do I believe Dixon or the c20 rep, let me mull that over.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:09 PM
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Finis, its easier on the company to have this pass the first time. Think about that. Our leaders are trying to assure that though company communication and comments in the press. IMO, the press comments have been overly presumptuous. I will not comment on intra company messages.
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