Southwest trying to leave SEA airport
 

Airline proposes terminal at Boeing Field

By Alwyn Scott
Seattle Times business reporter

Southwest Airlines unveiled a proposal yesterday to build a $130 million terminal and parking garage at Boeing Field in Seattle, touting the plan as "a nice, big, shiny, new, expensive gift" to the county that would boost employment, provide lower fares and even help sell Boeing jets.

The discount airline, which says it wants to shift all its flights from Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, would design and build an eight-gate terminal and seven-level parking garage next to the county-owned Boeing Field's existing terminal, and deed them to the county after 50 years.

"It's Christmas in July for King County, Seattle and Puget Sound," Southwest Senior Vice President Ron Ricks said in a hard-sell news conference at Boeing Field yesterday.

"We're going to buy a lot of new Boeing 737s, and we're going to fly them to a building we built and gave to you," Ricks said.

Skeptics questioned whether any financial windfall for the county would come at the expense of taxpayers, nearby residents, and the financial underpinnings of Sea-Tac airport.

King County Council Chairman Larry Phillips challenged the $1.6 billion in economic benefits predicted by Southwest Airlines and County Executive Ron Sims. "Before we begin to sing the Christmas carols, we ought to have a pretty good idea of how many gifts really are in Santa's bag," he said.

If King County accepts the proposal, Southwest would run 60 flights daily from Boeing Field starting in 2009, up from 38 flights a day at Sea-Tac, gradually increasing to about 85 by 2013.

Rival airlines Alaska and Horizon said yesterday Southwest's shift would prompt them to move as many as a combined 100 flights a day to Boeing Field — nearly one-third of their Sea-Tac flights — even if that meant building their own terminal at Boeing Field.

"We would be prepared to do whatever would be necessary," said Joe Sprague, a vice president at Alaska Air Group, which owns Alaska and Horizon.

"The region has invested billions of dollars" in building Sea-Tac, he said. For the county and city to now spend money on Boeing Field "is incredibly bad public policy."

Southwest currently pays about $11.9 million a year in fees to Sea-Tac, while Alaska and Horizon together contribute about $69 million.

Southwest officials estimated yesterday that, at Boeing Field, they would pay the county $2.5 million per year in landing fees and ground leases. The county would also share in parking revenue.

The Port of Seattle, which operates Sea-Tac, said it would consider cutting airport-expansion plans in response to Southwest's proposal. Sea-Tac is in the midst of a $4.2 billion building program that includes a third runway, a larger central terminal and improvements.

"There's a list of projects we're going to have in front of us as early as Tuesday that could be delayed or omitted," Port Commission President Bob Edwards said.

The Port already has cut projects, restructured its debt and trimmed staff to bring airlines' projected future costs at the airport down to an estimated $14.15 per passenger from $25 projected two years ago. Those costs would take effect in 2009, when the third runway is scheduled to open.

Despite those moves, Southwest said costs at Sea-Tac are threatening its ability to serve Seattle, and without the move, it might have to scale back operations here.

Costs at Sea-Tac are the highest among the 60 airports Southwest serves, Chief Executive Gary Kelly said. Southwest's nationwide average airport cost is between $4 and $5 per passenger, and at Boeing Field the airline thinks it can operate below that average.

Sea-Tac costs amount to more than $10 per passenger, "with the cost destined to go higher," Kelly said.

Southwest said it would conduct a full environmental review, and said its modern, all-Boeing fleet "climbs higher and climbs faster and thus diminishes the noise on the ground."

Southwest often flies from secondary airports. It generally uses existing buildings, but recently built a terminal in Islip, N.Y.

Sims welcomed Southwest's proposal, saying it would bring new jobs to the south end of Seattle while boosting Boeing Field's anemic revenues and building a privately funded terminal that the county eventually would own.

Sims said Southwest has agreed to steer its flights over water instead of residential neighborhoods as much as possible.

"We believe actually that this may result in less noise [rather] than more," he said.

Under the proposal, road improvements would be government's responsibility. Sims and county Transportation Director Harold Taniguchi said they won't know how much it might cost to upgrade nearby roads in Seattle or Tukwila until an environmental-impact study is completed. Sims noted that four-lane Airport Way South in front of the airport is under-used.

He vowed that any road improvements needed to support Southwest's move would come from airport revenues rather than from tax coffers. "There's not going to be property-tax money used to pay for the airport," he said.

The city of Seattle, which owns roads surrounding the airport, said it wouldn't pay for improvements. "If they want to do this proposal, they're going to have to address that concern," said Marty McOmber, a spokesman for Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels.

The plan is running into serious opposition from neighborhood groups, King County Council members and officials in some neighboring cities.

"We have no intention of allowing Southwest to justify their cheap airline fares on the backs of our citizens having to put up with the additional noise," said Tukwila Mayor Steve Mullet.

He questioned whether Southwest would produce enough airport revenue to improve roads, including Boeing Access Road.

"There's probably $100 million [in road upgrade costs] sitting out there somewhere," he said. Five out of 13 County Council members are co-sponsoring an ordinance that would require any airline to pay all capital costs — including those off site — of moving to Boeing Field.

Funding road improvements through increased airport revenues wouldn't comply with the ordinance, said its prime sponsor, Dwight Pelz.

If Southwest moves to Boeing Field, Pelz said, it would gain "an unfair advantage in the marketplace. I don't know why King County government should take sides in the airline industry. That is not our job."

Kurt Triplett, Sims' chief of staff, said Boeing Field could still accommodate Alaska Airlines if the airline wants to build a terminal and parking for an operation the size Southwest is proposing. But the airport couldn't accommodate the 200 takeoffs and landings a day Alaska cited yesterday, he said.

The Federal Aviation Administration said it will await a specific proposal from the county before assessing the added flights.

Boeing spokeswoman Sandy Angers said the company has no opinion on Southwest moving to Boeing Field. But she added, "Southwest is a great 737 customer. ... Anything that's going to help them be profitable, we're all for their success."

Southwest does it right...right? If it is cheaper for them at boeing field...go there!

I am sure the customers will follow.

PSG

Right?


NO ABSOLUTELY WRONG


SWA has a lot of room to save even more.


1) Ever thought of actually trying to get along with the rest of the flying community?

I would be very leary of someone who just can't play with others.

Lets get in the game and we ALL win. SWA idea is make our own rules and
ONLY SWA wins.




Sure, goods and products all over this country come in many shapes and colors and PRICES.

If Southwest is the Walmart of the skies, that's good! It means their customers are getting consistently low prices, a friendly smile, and a no-frills value. That's what the pax want, and those companies like JetBlue and Southwest that give it to them will do well.

I think bashing Southwest is unjustified-- last I checked, they were hiring pilots and paying them well-- not furloughing thousands and cutting their pay.

Good question, maybe this can help.

American Airlines

American Airlines’ pilot training program is under watch due to the number of plane crashes that have been attributed to pilot errors over the last 15 years. Since 1985 American Airlines has had 270 fatalities, 741 FAA incidents, 158 NTSB incidents, and 505 FAA violations/fines in 1997-2000, making it the U.S. leader in FAA violations and fines.

source

Aviation Lawyer

>>It's only a matter of time that SWA will be buying Made in China Airplanes<<

Let's see, SWA's history is 100% Boeing.

AMR's history includes Airbi from France, Fokkers from Holland, BAC's from England, and of course, the RJ's from Brazil and Canada.

Speaking of China, how much Walmart merchandise gets hauled between AA's newly gained and hard fought for China service and it's code share agreement with China Eastern Airlines. How much revenue does AMR earn today from flights flown by former MIG pilot Chicoms from China Eastern flights carrying AA passengers holding AA generated tickets bearing AA codes.

I knew it wouldn't take long to take a stab at AA safety record.
Yes , it is not great no arguing there.

But back to the main topic.......... How about save all that money
building up Seattle Boeing field. and take that offer for FREE GATES
and many other perks at DFW!
I know I know DFW is not our type of airport we like.
Well business wise I would want my company to save that money
building something new and take the free offer at DFW.

Sure seems like a better way to spend cash to me.

Lets review here:

1) Move from SEA to BFI, spend millions
2) Move to DFW ,fly long haul, take advantage of free rent plus all the other perks, Give AA a run for their money. make millions

Seems quite simple to me
But what do I know :)

[QUOTE=av8r4aa]Right?


It's only a matter of time that SWA will be buying Made in China Airplanes
And crewing them with dirt poor farmers from some third world country.

Ninety Two, Set....you are quite correct SWA does pay quite well and are hiring. They paid this "dirt poor farmers from some third world country" $202K last year to fly an AMERICAN MADE B-737 (more than an AA 777 driver) and hiring projections call for 250 more new hires this year and 500 min. next year.
----------------------------------------------------------------
'YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR"

Widow's son....Great reference points!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Seems quite simple to me
But what do I know

Apparently not much. I'm thankful that Gary Kelly is running the SWA show and not some idiot without a concept of business

You might want to be careful bashing Walmart, some of your 2500+ layed-off coworkers may be working there. Oh did I mention that SWA has never laid off a pilot. I can't figure out why you are so angry with lil' old SWA, heck you work for the biggerst airline in the world and you guys made a profit last quarter.
Your jealous rants are quite a compliment. Thank you.

AA,

The point with your "you get what you pay for" reference was that somehow north Texas travellers should be happy to pay more to ride on American than Southwest.

Southwest has;

A better on-time record
A better baggage handling record
A much lower passenger complaint history
An admittedly much higher safety record
Higher Baldwin Quality award ratings
More room in coach
Pillows!
No chance of getting put on a turboprop
Much younger fleet
All accomplished by a much happier workforce because they earn more money, have better benefits, and enjoy much better job security.

Granted you can't buy an SWA ticket and ride on China Eastern, but overall, can you explain why the public should gladly want to pay more to fly American?

You nailed it, Widow's Son.

I'm not familar with that practice, could you expand on how SWA is exploiting the fabric of this country and sending jobs off shore? As stated before, my understanding was that they paid a decent wage and benefits, are profitable, and hire only US employees.

Have you looked in the mirror lately?


Your really a mangment pilot at AA aren't you? I think that AA managment must be the only ones who don't understand why SWA will never go to DFW. It's about operating costs not the lease costs. SWA in general shys away from slot controled - high capcity airports. Until the feds get a grip an ATC, SWA will always go for the path of least resistance in terms of airport delays.

Swa and their Sandbox
 

This is what I am angry about.

Its always SWA who is the one who can't get along with anyone else
and requires their "own sandbox" to play in.

Here are some recent examples:

1) Wright amendment, 30 some odd years ago everybody I mean EVERYBODY said ok DFW I see that you built us a really nice new aerodrome and you want us to use it. Ok, EVERYBODY packed their bags and moved to DFW.........
that is everybody but SWA. SWA said "we like it here" ok then fine
Love is where you will stay!.
Fast forward 30 years Now SWA wants to have their "own sandbox"
Swa says "we don't like DFW" and we want to skirt the issue and have the legislation changed so we can still have our "own sandbox"
Sorry Fellas that decision was made 30 years ago........you had the chance then AND STILL HAVE THE SAME OPTION TODAY.
Pack up and move over !

2) Recent SEA events:
SEA has built up an beautifull new airport, modern large,easy access,etc.
SWA AGAIN says" We don't like SEA we want our own sandbox"

The city fathers and the rest of the non SWA comminity are saying
"SWA whats your problem" We have built a beautifull airport for you and everyone else to use.
But NOOOOOOOOOO SWA has to buck the system AGAIN had have it their way.

People this ain't Burger King, lets just fly to and from the SAME airport
and quit this SWA sandbox VS Rest of the airline sandbox.

SWA has a good product to sell NO discussion there.
Lets just all sell our product from the same mall!

I know ,I know You will harp all over my points saying things like
SEA and DFW just are not are in our business plans.
Well Tough.......... Airports in American are for ALL planes big, small.
green yellow and blue. So I ask you to play in everyones sandbox
and quit bucking the system.

SWA and all others CAN do this at the same playground.
Its just a matter of wanting to.

Enough is enough
 

This whole AA against Southwest thing is getting really old to read...

Get it into your mind that this is a business. You can't whine that the way Southwest does business is hurting AA. Thats ludicrious. If AA really cares, then do something about it. Beat them. Develop a better business plan. Try being on time for once. I picked up my buddy 3 hours late yesterday (3am) at the Little Rock airport because AA was late... again!

Talking about it on here sure isn't going to help.

And no I don't work for either company... I read this forum to try to find leads and ideas on how to find a job... not listen to people whine about how their company is getting their butts handed to them by a younger, smaller company with a better business plan.

Bengals Fan
 

Mr. Bengals Fan

Perhaps you should stay in the Military?
Since you are already accustomed to a "non profit organization"

Since you do not care how business is performed at your current position,
maybe you should stay at that mindset.

I like to discuss different business plans and ideas.
From your post I see that you don't like to discuss anything new and different.

If you do not want to join the discussion I might suggest you surf elswhere!

You are free to make up ANY TOPIC and have some talk about it.
Please do not chastise others because YOU dont like it.
Sincerely
Aviator for AA

It seems that's true as long as it's an idea that you champion. It's been pointed out that SWA is a successful business, with good employee morale, a solid business plan, and return on equity to share holders.

So please, could you tell us again where SWA is doing it all wrong?

AA guy
 

Whats funny is that my post did talk about business, and more fact is that you don't talk business, you whine that Southwest doesn't "play along". Well playing along isn't business. Beating your opposition into folding is... and that is what Southwest is doing to AA in Texas.

Mr Bengal fan,
Remind me so I can be sure that your resume goes where it needs to,
when AA starts hiring again.

2 hints:

1) its round
2) gets dumped nightly

Do us all a favor and stay where you are at Please!

>>Its always SWA who is the one who can't get along with anyone else
and requires their "own sandbox" to play in.<<

So what exactly was the sandbox situation when Legend airlines built their own terminal at Love and did their own thing there only to have AA come in with their modified 56 seat airplanes which they purposely operated at a huge loss to undercut Legend and then promptly left the scene the moment they had destroyed them?

Sandbox clarification
 

Perhaps a little history lesson is in order.

Maybe you were too young but a few years ago..........

September 11 to be exact. A lot of things changed that day.

I do not remember SWA in the news that day.

Since then many changes have happened one being AA leaving

Love field .

You were probably a student pilot then and did not pay much attention

Cry me a river.

9/11 was a horrible day for everyone. It is a verifiable fact that the direct economic impact of the aftermath of 9/11 has had a significantly higher adverse impact on short haul flights than long haul. Security hassles and delays make the automobile a competitor on short haul. That is one of the primary reasons why SWA is increasing its stage lengths and desirous of flying long haul out of DAL. The other is the tax/fee per segment rules that AMR championed to hurt SWA.

BTW, I started as a student pilot in 1974

Bengalsfan, you apparently get it. So when it's time for you to make the transition, your resume' would be welcome at www.southwest.com. As far as AA, they still have +/-2500 layed off. It will probably be 4-5 years before there is any movement over there. Also, don't discount the freight operators, as that business is fairly stable. Whatever you decide, do pleanty of research and may I reccommend that you read the book Hard Landing. Good luck. ;)

UPS reported a 900 million+ profit for Q2 2005. I'd say they were "fairly stable"! I think it's a matter of time before AA decides that they need more give-backs from labor, thus ending the recent labor-managment love affair over there.

Legacy carriers are having to "re-invent" themselves if they want to survive in the post 9/11 world. It's tough pill for sure, but not SWA's or anyone else's fault.

SWACapt
 

Thanks for the support. I have about 10 friends working at SWA, but my desires do lie in Cargo or possibly a blue chip corporate (very tough on both ends, so I may just end up taking a full time reserve gig to accomodate AA dude).

AA dude, I'm not trying to take shots at you man. Thats not the point. Its just that your view seems a little off, and if you read the posts, it doesn't seem like I'm the only one who thinks so.

I mean really... why take a shot at me like that... I never wished you to be furloughed.

Good luck to everyone.

Good luck to you to Sir
 

This crazy business sure can get people spooled up (namely me)

I really like SWA, I have several friends there. One being your training video
person (J. Fedderer) . There are some really smart people there both working stiffs and Mgmt. folks
I wish ALL readers here good will with their chosen airline or profession.

Being at the AA limits my cheering for the "other team" It is a great place to work ,As is SWA I am sure.

At the end of the day waiting for the hotel bus its the same "players"
lined up for the same bus. Just different Jerseys. Everyone just wants to get checked in and chill out a little. All the people feeling good about their day and knowing they did as good of job possible.

Yes I may sound like a raving maniac sometimes.
It is good to discuss and learn that Brand X or Brand Y all do the same job
flying the same air going to the same destinations.
I have no hard feelings about SWA or any other carrrier. I guess what would be better for me is to be able to toot my own horn a little more. instead of stepping on the other guys horn.
With the situation where it is it just seems like bad news piled upon worse.

Southwest is a WONDERFULL company . Anyone working there should be bursting with pride. It truly is the best airline in the World.
Sometimes I wonder if I should have gone there?

av8r,

It is pretty obvious that AA is head and shoulders above all the other US based full service global carriers. Love field notwithstanding, they will come roaring back to their "imperial fleet" status of past glory years and you and your pals will have a great career.

Wal Mart
 

Folks,

Mr. American is mad because you brought up the safety record. The fine aviators of American Airlines have looked down on the rest of us mere mortals from the time they invented flying.

If you think this "aviator" is any different from the normal american pilot mindset you are mistaken. In our "integration" the APA refered to TWA pilots as K-Mart, while they were Nordstroms. Being hired at American was like being a major league baseball player, being hired at TWA was equivalent to being the hotdog vendor.

Nope if American doesn't like the way things are going, they take their planes and go home. Just the personality they like to hire.

By the way Av8rr, didn't AA leave RDU,BNA,STL and refuse to fly to MHT, all very profitable for Southwest? Didn't AA dismantle the most efficient hub they had?

No if Southwest wants to leave SEA, best of luck to them.

TW

If you keep abreast of the newspapers you may find that the outcome just may be that SWA's willingness to throw the BS flag on Sea-Tac's expensive expansion may save ALL the airlines a bundle in new fees. Sea-Tac has announced that it is reviewing it's plans and will attempt to discover methods to reduce the overall cost to the tenant airlines.

Why didn't the other carriers complain? I'd guess its because they have no leverage to do so. Right now SWA is the only major airline with the cash to effect decisions. Their actions in Seattle, while self-serving on the surface, may have been the best for the entire industry.

Similarly, at Dallas-Fort Worth, SWA doesn't want to get roped into a situation of helping pay off a new $2 billion international terminal that they will not use. Thus, they have clearly stated that DFW is nowhere in their plans.

Airports need to realize that they are in the customer service business. Their customers are the airlines and failure to provide a satisfactory product at a competitive price will result in customer flight ... literally.

Did SW ever get approved to fly into Boeing Field in the future

How much is the cost of the third runway up to so far? its like billions isnt it? They are willing to spend all that for a runway at seatac but they cant spend anything to use Boeing field. That area around boeing field is a getto and could use the benifits of an airline in there, but all these corrupt SOBs in office at looking out for thier owners. The county doesnt want any airlines anywhere but in seatac. That way they have a monopoly and charge whatever they want.

UPS uses BFI

Welcome to America. You're just figuring out that competition is a part of the free market?

This particular AA dude has a particular beef with military guys that he's displayed in the past. Not representative of the AA guys I know (since they're all ex-mil).

Good Luck...you never know where you might end up!