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Please Help Pilots Stuck In Brazil

Old 11-18-2006, 12:28 AM
  #21  
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I think its only fair that the pilots are asked to stay in Brazil until the investigation is over. A hotel in Copacabana isnt exactly too rough....

If the investigation proves they are innocent, they will be released. If they are guilty, they will be charged according to the Brazilian laws. Pretty standard I'd say.

Look at the reverse situation. What if two Brazilian pilots picking up a G-V collided with a SWA 73 and killed 150 people... what would the US government do? what would the media/public opinion say? how would their pressure influence the government's decision? Think about it for a second. Imagine the headlines on the newspapers and the hype on TV news.

Personally, I'd rather be the US pilot stuck in Brazil than the reverse scenario.... Especially after the new "patriot acts" where the US government can ship you to Guantanamo, torture you and force you to confess only because of your ethnic background.... (this is not a tangent, its a fact that gives you an idea of the treatment the US government reserves for foreign inidividuals awaiting trial/investigation)

They are in a hotel. They have not been harmed. They are entitled to legal assitence. That's more that the US is giving to thousands of Guantanamo detainees... (and don't even start with the "but they are terrorists" propaganda, if you truly believe all of Guantanamo's detainees are terrorist,s you switched your brain off a few years ago. Some of those guy in Guantanamo are just as innocent as you and I, just the wrong nationality)


Btw, I am in no way insinuating they are guilty or did anything wrong. They might be perfectly innocent. And even if they did make a mistake that caused the accident, I am not supporting the idea of charging a pilot with manslaughter after an accident which was not voluntary (quite the contrary). But the accident happened in Brazilian soil, therefore the Brazilian laws apply. We need to accept and respect this fact, in the same way we expect foreign citizens to respect US laws. I doubt US authorities would have been in a rush to send the Brazilian pilots home until the investigation had been completed....

The mid-air over Brazil was a tragedy that I'm sure none of the people involved were hoping for. I can't imagine how the surviving pilots feel knowing the accident caused 150 deaths (whether or not they had any fault...I know I would feel terrible). However, boycotting Brazilian products, making stupid bumper stickers and failing to view the events from a different point of view, only because the 2 surviving pilots happened to be born in the same country as you, is just plain foolish IMHO. Grow up.

Last edited by palgia841; 11-18-2006 at 12:35 AM. Reason: added smiley faces ;)
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Old 11-18-2006, 03:27 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by palgia841 View Post
I think its only fair that the pilots are asked to stay in Brazil until the investigation is over. A hotel in Copacabana isnt exactly too rough.... ...............................
I differ with your post. This is NOT a vacation for either one. If you've read any reports, they stay in their rooms. They don't dare go out of the hotel. These men are being held hostage. Period.

After almost two months, they have been charged with nothing.

Comparing these two pilots to Guantanamo detainees is simply not valid.

Last edited by fireman0174; 11-18-2006 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 11-18-2006, 04:28 AM
  #23  
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palgia841,

You're definitely entitled to your own opinion, but I encourage you to go back and read through the news articles that surround this accident. This is certainly no vacation for either of these pilots. I used to work with Jan, and he has corresponded with me about his situation. Make no mistake. This crew is under house arrest and are fearful of their own safety.

Comparing them with Guantanamo detainees is ridiculous. They are professionals that were involved in a terrible accident. Following the accident they willfully submitted to the requests of the Brazilian government by being debriefed and interviewed multiple times.

Three days after the accident, things went south. The Defense Minister publically accused the pilots of intentionally turning off their transponder and performing aerobatic maneuvers to "test the limits of their new aircraft." He also accused them of deviating from a filed flight plan, and not complying with ATC instructions. Keep in mind that this is the same person that is charged with ensuring that the investigation is unbiased and fair. Also keep in mind that on this delivery flight there was a reporter, and several executives from both Embraer and the company that employed the pilots, ExcelAire. Not exactly the situation where I would be going out and doing steep turns and stalls (let alone aerobatic flight).

Shortly after, the ministry of justice announced that they were planning to seek charges (including possible murder charges) against any responsible parties. The Brazilian public was out for blood.

As a result, these pilots have spent no more than a handful of hours under the sunlight. Those hours that they have been out of their rooms, I've been told that it was on the roof of the hotel, also under close guard for their own protection. They are locked in their hotel rooms. Their families are not available any longer, as life must continue back in the states.

In the past weeks, it has become more apparent that ATC has played a significant role in this accident. If you've ever been to Brazil and flown through the area where the accident occurred, you would know that both radar coverage and particularly radio coverage can be sporadic. CVR recordings have apparently revealed that ATC did infact assign the Legacy the altitude at which they were flying, and the FDR shows that the Legacy was in straight and level flight at the time of impact.

In addition, the government has yet to interview the controllers that were working on the day of the collision. These controllers have been placed on ADMINISTRATIVE MEDICAL LEAVE, and have refused to cooperate with the investigators or give any type of statements.

Today marks 50 days since the accident. These pilots have fully cooperated with the Brazilian authorities. If (and this is a big if, IMHO), it is found through a thorough investigation, that there was extreme negligence on the part of the pilots that warrants criminal charges, then there are established extradition treaties for their return to Brazil.

However, I think that it sets a very dangerous precedence when governments (of any country) start any aviation disaster investigation with fingerpointing and threats of criminal prosecution, instead of investigating to find the cause and prevent it from happening again, especially if the investigators want full cooperation from all parties... The fact that the controllers have clammed up shows exactly why it's imperative not to point fingers and toss claims of "murder charges" around during an active investigation.

Finally, if you know anything about this business, accident investigations take months, if not years to come to a final determination. Do you expect these pilots to be confined until then?
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Old 11-18-2006, 04:58 AM
  #24  
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Default Palgia841 aka I HATE AMERICA

I am going to take the immature stance...(obviously from your post you lack sanity and reason, so why waste my time).

YOU ARE A COMPLETE DUMBASS!
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Old 11-18-2006, 05:31 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by CargoBob View Post
I am going to take the immature stance...(obviously from your post you lack sanity and reason, so why waste my time).

YOU ARE A COMPLETE DUMBASS!
Well said.

J
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Old 11-18-2006, 07:04 AM
  #26  
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Writing to your representatives is VERY EASY and takes only a few minutes.

Here is a key point you should get accross. Governemnt officials listen to MONEY more than anything. Below is the message I sent to my senate representative (Bob Menendez, D-NJ):

Sen. Menendez,

This letter is to ask that you and your colleagues work towards the return of two American pilots being held unlawfully in Brazil as a result of an air accident they were involved in roughly two months ago. The corrupt, ant-American governemt of that country has been revenously lying about the pilots' conduct in the aircraft. This is a serious matter and needs to be addressed, especially for the safety of American professioal pilots and flight attendants who travel to that country with their jobs. Also, this will held end the possibility of American flight crews boycotting air carrier operations to Brazil, which would result in a loss of reveue (and therefore a loss of taxes for the our governemt).

Get the idea? Tell your senator/congressman how this could hit their states in the wallet.
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Old 11-18-2006, 07:57 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by palgia841 View Post
I think its only fair that the pilots are asked to stay in Brazil until the investigation is over. A hotel in Copacabana isn't exactly too rough....

If the investigation proves they are innocent, they will be released. If they are guilty, they will be charged according to the Brazilian laws. Pretty standard I'd say.

Look at the reverse situation. What if two Brazilian pilots picking up a G-V collided with a SWA 73 and killed 150 people... what would the US government do? what would the media/public opinion say? how would their pressure influence the government's decision? Think about it for a second. Imagine the headlines on the newspapers and the hype on TV news.

Personally, I'd rather be the US pilot stuck in Brazil than the reverse scenario.... Especially after the new "patriot acts" where the US government can ship you to Guantanamo, torture you and force you to confess only because of your ethnic background.... (this is not a tangent, its a fact that gives you an idea of the treatment the US government reserves for foreign inidividuals awaiting trial/investigation)

They are in a hotel. They have not been harmed. They are entitled to legal assitence. That's more that the US is giving to thousands of Guantanamo detainees... (and don't even start with the "but they are terrorists" propaganda, if you truly believe all of Guantanamo's detainees are terrorist,s you switched your brain off a few years ago. Some of those guy in Guantanamo are just as innocent as you and I, just the wrong nationality)


Btw, I am in no way insinuating they are guilty or did anything wrong. They might be perfectly innocent. And even if they did make a mistake that caused the accident, I am not supporting the idea of charging a pilot with manslaughter after an accident which was not voluntary (quite the contrary). But the accident happened in Brazilian soil, therefore the Brazilian laws apply. We need to accept and respect this fact, in the same way we expect foreign citizens to respect US laws. I doubt US authorities would have been in a rush to send the Brazilian pilots home until the investigation had been completed....

The mid-air over Brazil was a tragedy that I'm sure none of the people involved were hoping for. I can't imagine how the surviving pilots feel knowing the accident caused 150 deaths (whether or not they had any fault...I know I would feel terrible). However, boycotting Brazilian products, making stupid bumper stickers and failing to view the events from a different point of view, only because the 2 surviving pilots happened to be born in the same country as you, is just plain foolish IMHO. Grow up.

What planet are you from? Comparing two professional pilots to terrorist? From the tone of your post, you clearly have issues with the US holding terrorist suspects at gitmo. But at the same time you think that it's OK to hold these two pilots even though there is evidence to support their innocence. So let me see if I got this right. It is NOT OK to hold a suspect when it has to do with national security, but it's perfectly OK to hold a suspect that has absolutely no connection to national security. Hmmm. It appears to me that you have an anti-American bias that has clouded your thought process or lack of.

Concerning your little scenario in which two Brazilian pilots picking up a GV, you know damn well that those pilots would be released at the very second evidence was discovered that could prove their innocence.
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:17 AM
  #28  
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[quote=FlyerJosh;82081]

FlyerJosh,

Excellent post. May I have your permission to copy your post and repost on other message boards and e-mails? Your post describes in great detail the plight of these fellow aviators. I am trying to get as many people as possible to call, write their elected leaders with outrage and get these guys home with their families ASAP!


FYI, I have been in contact with ALPA President Elect John Prater and he as informed me ALPA has a meeting set up with the US State Department. John is going to call Joe and Jan soon.
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:23 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by palgia841 View Post
I think its only fair that the pilots are asked to stay in Brazil until the investigation is over. A hotel in Copacabana isnt exactly too rough....

I respectfully disaagree. You are however entitled to your opinion. I´m not going to repeat what was already very well stated by flyerjosh. I have accurate information on this situation and what he wrote is 100% correct. I´m sure if the situation was reveresed you wouldn´t feel the same.
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Old 11-18-2006, 09:16 AM
  #30  
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CAL EWR,

Feel free to repost as you see fit. I'm but a messenger, and anything that helps to brings these guys home to family hopefully in time for the holidays, I say go for it! (although I'm losing hope on Thanksgiving)

Lets not forget that these are two professional pilots. These guys weren't screwing around with their new toy or trying to stretch the regulations. I know Jan from his days at ACA, and can attest to the fact that he is well known and well liked, and considered as a professional among his peers.

~Josh
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