Timbo

Shoelu, for my entire career, since a new hire, my lines were mostly 3 on, 4 off, or 4 on, 6 off, working 12 days a month, if I wanted to pick up more than that, I might, but not usually.

I have done your type of flying, narrow body domestic, many legs per day. Then I moved upward and onward to International flying. Guess what? I like that better, for the layovers, for the pay, for the days off. When I want to get some stick time, I go fly a Pitts Special or a J3 Cub.

Until Delta's bankrutpcy and our pay cuts, you guys were at the bottom of the pay scale, and we are going to (finally) be back above your pay rates soon.

What I'm trying to explain to Joey is, when you work for an airline that has a wide variety of aircraft types, and international destinations, you will have more CHOICES available to you as you move on in your career.

How Joey, (or any SWA pilot) who has never laid over in Singapore, or London, or Paris, or Rome or Madrid, or Hong Kong, or Tel Aviv, or Mumbai, or anywhere outside of the Conus can make a statement that they would not like that type of flying is beyond me.

You remind me of my kids when they were little and I was trying to get them to eat Indian food....

"But Dad, I don't like Indian food!"

Guess what? They all LOVE Indian food now that they've grown up.
How do you know you don't like it, until you try it?

itsokimapilot

Outside observation (zero 121 experience)... Using round numbers for ease of my caveman math.

American Airlines-Furloughed pilots and still bringing them back. I have friends that were hired in 1999-2000. They still can't hold WB FO on a schedule they want. Capt upgrade? No time soon. Roughly, 12,000 pilots on property, retiring at about 600/year on average over the next 10 years equals five percent attrition annually. Whens the next economic downturn going to cause them to furlough again? I don't see any new hire upgrading to Capt in the next 10 years.

Southwest-Never furloughed and has stood by their promise in every hit to the industry to take care of their people (read they haven't furloughed). Youngest Capt hired in '03. 6,000 pilots on property retiring 200/year equals 3 percent attrition annually. They advertise a long upgrade at least you know what to expect.

I've flown around the world and had some great crew rests. A 24 hour turn is about the worst thing for your body. Give me 16 or 36 hours off. At least then I can get some rest when I land and not fight my body to stay awake to get a good night's sleep before the next incredibly boring 10 hour leg. Those of you that enjoy crossing multiple time zones and seeing another European city with a big church in the square and having a coffee or beer in the plaza, good for you. Been there, done that. I'd much rather fly in the ol US of A and hit BW3s and be able to use my cell phone to talk to the kids every night. I'm sure that international travel suits some. If you haven't done it before, don't let the old heads on here fill your brains with all the fluff. I may be in the minority on this board, but I'm really looking forward to primarily domestic flying in this next career.

JoeyMeatballs

Don't use facts on here!

tsquare

Swedish Blender

I have done both. I am now flying long haul international and enjoy the blocks on/off. I am a commuter so it saves losing more days at home going back and forth.

I would have to go with AA. If you want to fly domestic the rest of your life like SWA, you can do that at any of the legacy carriers. For some reason if you ever wanted to switch and try something else you can. At SWA, not so much.

My phone works fine internationally. I don't normally use the phone unless it's an emergency or I'm at an airport and can't get wifi (not normally a problem in Asia). hook it up to wifi and I have Face Time and Skype so it's no problem talking to the family. Yes, 24 hour layovers suck.

You can't use the argument that SWA has never furloughed. To date, that is true but there was a time when any airline could say that. Look at UPS. They made 1.8 billion last quarter but still have 44 on the street. Past performance is no guarantee of future promises.

It is hard to compare the airlines simply because there haven't been new hires at AA in years. I do know several at SWA that were hired 06-07 who used to drink the juice until the AirTran merger happened. None of them are happy to say the least.

Everyone has to make their own/best choice at the time.

tsquare

What I find interesting is that when you boil this all down, for the most part it comes back to SWA having better pay. Not everything, but for the most part. You hit on the fact that the legacies are catching back up to the point where they WILL be topping SWA pay again. It is inevitable because of pattern bargaining. What will be interesting will be to see that when that inevitability does happen whether or not SWA will see the need to raise the bar or will they fall back into the mode that they were in pre bankruptcy. From what I can tell, they are satisfied to maintain their small bites of the apple rather than on big one.. and that is a compliment, because it has yielded far bigger bank accounts in the long run. The other side of the equation is the availability of choice. At a legacy, you have that. At SWA, not so much. Again, not throwing a rock, it is what it is. Some people are very happy flying the fluff, and some like bigger guns. I LOVE flying the -ER, but since the merger, I have become more domesticated. It's a nice balance to be able to get that FRA trip once in a blue moon, but I like 2 legs/day in the daytime too... From a personal perspective, I like the variety. But to answer the question, I don't see the growth at SWA. Even shoelu admitted that the procurement of larger 737s will be good for the bottom line of the company , but for pilots probably doesn't bode well for hiring... I'd go to AA...

shoelu

I bet the vast majority of legacy pilots can not make this statement: "Shoelu, for my entire career, since a new hire, my lines were mostly 3 on, 4 off, or 4 on, 6 off, working 12 days a month" but maybe I'm wrong. Most of the guys I know low on a legacy list are sitting reserve and not getting 18 days off a month. You brought up "More money, More time off." I was simply stating that every line holder at SWA averages 18 days off. Reserve guys have 15 or 16 days off. The original poster was asking about the bottom of the list at SWA or AA, not a senior widebody captain. I think we can all agree that the bottom of the list is exponentially different than what a senior captain experiences monthly. Maybe some junior AA guys can chime in on what to expect the first several years at AA.

I made no mention of what is better domestic or international I have simply pointed out what the bottom of the list guys at SWA can expect. Admittedly, it is not for everyone. YMMV.

JoeyMeatballs

(Filler)

VenetianFryCook

The entire point of this 12-page (and counting) diatribe is that this decision is different for everyone ... and it's not just the difference between AA and SWA as the original poster asked.

Case in point ... I left a moderately senior CA position on the best-paying equipment at a sizable regional to come to US Airways 2.5 years ago. For me, for a variety of reasons, the decision was an absolute no-brainer, and I've never regretted it. I'm now based at home, have nearly 400 underneath me, and am about to make the most money I've ever earned in my career working for the largest airline in the world with the oldest pilot group in America ... in other words, relatively rapid advancement in an industry where advancement is the closest thing there is to job security.

I don't say that to brag on myself. I have friends who are shackled by the so-called "golden handcuffs" at regionals and can't/won't leave. I have friends who have gone overseas to the Cathays and Emirates of the world. I have friends at pretty much every airline in the US.

Each and every one of us made the best decision we could at the time for our personal circumstances - weigh the risks and the rewards, then you roll the dice and take your chances. For some it will work out, and for some it won't. We'll all know after we retire. But if you want a prediction of the future, you're barking up the wrong tree asking a bunch of airline pilots about it. This entire forum proves only that we can't agree on much of anything ...

Pilot 1: San Francisco is west of New York.
Pilot 2: No, it isn't. I can prove it!
Pilot 1: BS. How?
Pilot 2: Take off from New York. Fly east. Keep going long enough and you'll find San Francisco.
Pilot 1: Yeah? Well, my airplane is faster than yours.
Pilot 2: Sure, but my airplane is bigger.
Pilot 1: Well, my wife is hotter.
Pilot 2: Yeah, but my mistress is a better cook.
Pilot 1: F^(&^%*& you!!
Pilot 2: Scab!!

Timbo

Do you think everyone at the Legacy airlines sits on reserve??

Typically reserve coverage is only 20% of each category, that means 80% of the pilots are line holders. And with a wide variety of fleets, pilots can pick and choose their relative seniority, to either be junior at a higher pay rate, or get senior and off reserve. This month our 777 reserve lines are paying 82 hours, and lots of very senior guys bid to be on reserve, they know they won't fly much, if at all, and still get 82 hours.

Our trip rig is 5:15 day minimum, so to get to 75 hours they'd have to fly about 14 days, which is why International type trips go senior to our domestic, they fly more hours per day, so you are gone less days to get the same hours...and when you go to the Hotel, it's a nicer hotel in a nicer city and for 24 hours, vs. 9-10 hours at the typical Airport Holiday Inn. Back in the Good Old Days, the most senior trip was on the L1011 out of ATL, doing a San Juan turn, it was about 8 hours block, you flew it 10 days a month for 80 hours pay and slept in your own bed every night. It went very senior!

SWA has always been more efficient on a per day flying basis, because they only fly one airplane type, so everyone is qualified on every airplane, so there's no need to deadhead in an A320 Crew on a MD88 to cover a mechanical, etc. So you average more flying per day, vs. a Legacy hub and spoke type operation with many different fleets, all sitting around ATL or DEN or ORD waiting for their type of aircraft to arrive.

That's a very ineficient use of the pilot's time. We call them "Productivity Breaks", when we get stuck in the hub for 3 hours waiting for our airplane to arrive. That crap gets old fast, which is why most guys go to Int. as soon as they can hold it.

I said a long time ago, if Delta wanted to match SW in terms of efficient, they should just buy 500 737's for domestic flying and another 200 767ER's or 787's for International flying, but they'd also be able to get by with 2,000 fewer pilots to cover the same block hours.

Life is about choices, an all 737 airline doesn't give you much choice, but hey, who wants to get paid to fly to Rome and layover anyway?